Sabre 135 w/ 25 jumps ~ 1.4 WL

[Kimblair13 0]

OK...maybe I'm wrong, but there's a kid at my DZ jumping a 135. He went from a 190 to that today. I told him he shouldn't, but he said it was fun and his landing was fine on the last jump. There was gusting winds so I told him that helped out ALOT. Anywho, I don't know what to say to him to get him to stop jumping it. Any ideas? Just this last week he had a cutaway from a 190 from normal line twists. Hope he has fun with that thing when it spins up, it's not gonna keep flying straight.

[dgm458 0]

So the kid only has 25 jumps? When I first read the thread title I thought it was the canopy that had 25 jumps...until I read the thread.

1.4? Holy moly! Does your S&TA know? (Do you even have an S&TA?)

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Failure to prepare is preparing to fail

[NWFlyer 2]

Who knows whether any of this will get through to him, but maybe...

Print out some incident forum reports about low-timers on high wingloading...

Have your DZO or S&TA talk to him...

Assuming at 25 jumps he's fresh off student status, talk to his instructors and have them talk to him...

Failing that, tell him it's been nice knowing him because you don't expect to for much longer.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Brian425 0]

I know I am a low jump number guy; but, you have to stop him. Talk to him, talk to the DZO, talk to the S&TA. Just don't let him jump that. It is an incident waiting to happen.

Please stop. He will get hurt.

The only time you should look down on someone is when you are offering them your hand.

[mjosparky 3]

Hand him an Accident report form and have him fill out Section I. Will save you a lot trouble later.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Andy9o8 0]

I agree with all of the above responses.
See, this is where I think every DZO and S&TA (not just some of them) needs to be more proactive with low-timers. Simply forbidding him from jumping that canopy until he's more squared away is a good idea, but that only works at your dropzone -- are you going to phone or e-mail all the other local dropzones and drop a dime on this kid to protect him from himself? Maybe you will, or maybe you're not comfortable doing that. Some DZ's do closely scrutinize low timers' wing loadings and simply refuse to allow them to jump something too hot for their skill levels; but not all of them do. All of them should.

[Dougiefresh 0]

Tell him to be careful, and express your concern. If he doesn't want to hear the message he won't. I've got a buddy who did the same thing (sabre2 190 to stiletto 135 in 5 jumps); luckily he's lived to the point where he's actually somewhat ready for the canopy he's jumping. But he's the exception, I think.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[Cloudi 0]

Oh come on, he's a natural, can't you tell? You just don't know his skills and are trying to hold him back. Jeesh. Can't you see he's the latest gift to skydiving? He knows what he's doing. He flies conservatively and has landed it once just fine, that's what really matters. He's not going to attempt high performance landings until he has about 50 jumps and really knows the canopy.*

*If anyone doesn't understand why the above is total BS and WRONG, please feel free to peruse the incident reports and do a little research on canopy size and on the effects of wingloading.

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/wingload.pdf

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/choosing1.pdf

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/choosing2.pdf

I really hope he gets the kind of instruction that comes from experienced professionals who care about his future and not instruction from hardware and hospital beds. You are good to be looking out for him.

Kim

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[skykittykat 0]

To follow on from other replies, get your dzo/Safety officer to talk to him/her.

If that does not do anything to change the sitiuation, then you have done all you can do and he/she takes their place in the Dawin Awards/

If it makes you feel any better, I came across a guy who had downsized from a Stletto 150 to a Stiletto 120 and with a total of 200 jumps. I asked him if he could land it overses with higher elevation/thin air or if he would beable to land it in a back yard????? He said it didn't matter as he would not be jumping anywhere else.

OK, fair point, but what if he had to take a down wind landing at the dz???

He was cocky and is still jumpin, but it is only a matter of time.....

[hookncrater 0]

That's almost the exact same story of a friend of mine. He ended up becoming a pro-swooper amongst other things though. Today, even though he never got hurt, he admits it was kinda stupid at the time.

________________________________________________________________________________
when in doubt... hook it!

[crotalus01 0]

WOW....
i jump a sabre 190, and i am overloading it according to conventional wisdom (1.2:1). today i had a horrible opening that resulted in linetwists from my neck to the slider (wasnt body position either, just a fucked up off heading opening and a slammer to boot - confirmed by the D-licensed jumper i was doing a 2-way with). i managed to get out of the twists before my decision altitude (2K), but i really thought about chopping it.
i cant imagine what would happen to this guy in the same situation on a 135 - oh shit, wait a minute....yes i can

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[Travman 6]

When you fill out his incident report at least you can say "I told you so"

[btucker 0]

I see pain in his future!

Have a quiet word to DZ management, I'm sure they'll sort it out it. Qudos to you for caring about your fellow jumpers.

Good luck, Blues Benno

[livenletfly 0]

kim what does urban think about this guy jumping a 1.4 w/l? maybe have stu or gile talk to him. they may be more effective getting through to him. at least try to get him to wait until he has 100 jumps. either way id hope urban would be concerned about this guys well being.
just out of curiosity whats this guy like? ie.- attitude, canopy skills, awarness, age, has he ever landed down wind or cross wind in his massive 25 jump carrer!
i dont know if this is going to far but.... take the load down wind, he may get banged up alittle but that might scare him enough to chill out.

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[shropshire 0]

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i dont know if this is going to far but.... take the load down wind, he may get banged up alittle but that might scare him enough to chill out

Ouch..... engineering an incident seems a little unethical, dont you think?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Kimblair13 0]

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kim what does urban think about this guy jumping a 1.4 w/l? maybe have stu or gile talk to him. they may be more effective getting through to him. at least try to get him to wait until he has 100 jumps. either way id hope urban would be concerned about this guys well being.
just out of curiosity whats this guy like? ie.- attitude, canopy skills, awarness, age, has he ever landed down wind or cross wind in his massive 25 jump carrer!
i dont know if this is going to far but.... take the load down wind, he may get banged up alittle but that might scare him enough to chill out.

He's never landed downwind or crosswind, probably not even in no wind. He doesn't even really understand what a wingloading is and why smaller mains are more dangerous. He's mostly jumped in heavy winds. Actually, the last jumps I saw him land were on a Sabre 190 in very very light wind and he ate shit twice, then had a cutaway on it. He's probably about 24 years old. All he see's is Stu and Gile and Renfro swoopin, and wants to do it too.

[livenletfly 0]

wow he's really going to get hurt or killed. all he sees is 3 awsome swoopers instead of the thousands of jumps and years of experience it took to be able to fly hp canopys safley. well all you can do kim is inform urban of your concerns. then its up to him, its his dz and his consous if this kid dies. if he doesnt change its in fates hands, hopefully he'll just femur and not die or kill one of yall. bummer
good looking out though.
p.s why didnt you come up for the swoop comp? dont ya like us?

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[livenletfly 0]

yes it does sound unethical, but what if it means saving his life? wouldnt some bruises and scrapes be worth that. not to mention downwinders happen often. so he's going to have to do it eventually.
i understand its a fine line im suggesting, thats why i stated this may be going to far, but what better way to show him the trouble he's getting himself into. you can show him all the incident reports, and video of jumpers pounding, but until he's under the strings scared shitless realizing he's in over his head he'll just dismiss it to "that wont happen to me, im different".

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[billvon 2,391]

>>take the load down wind, he may get banged up alittle but
>that might scare him enough to chill out

>Ouch..... engineering an incident seems a little unethical, dont you think?

I used to hope that people like this never got hurt. Now I hope they break their femur - because that's better than death or paralysis. Over the years I've met half a dozen people like this guy, who was completely immune to advice. The ones that ended up breaking their femurs were the lucky ones, because it scared them enough to reconsider their choices - and often that saved their lives, or their spines.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I used to hope that people like this never got hurt. Now I hope they break their femur - because that's better than death or paralysis. Over the years I've met half a dozen people like this guy, who was completely immune to advice. The ones that ended up breaking their femurs were the lucky ones, because it scared them enough to reconsider their choices - and often that saved their lives, or their spines.

Been there, done that. I agree 100%.

[packerboy 3]

This shit sucks... Even though I have the urge to go smaller.. and have demoed a couple things a little smaller, I have a good time at 1:1. Laugh all you want, but with some good coaching I am getting some pretty hot swoops off a Sabre 150 at 1:1.

I want to go smaller and probably will before having 1000 jumps, but you need to dial in your shit first. It's no joke. I heard the sound of a guy femur/pelvis in once and it made me sick to my stomach.

Maybe someone should just show him what is actually possible with a lighter wingloading. If he wants to swoop in high winds with his experience he is retarded and should be bowling with a orange ball.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[bob.dino 0]

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Maybe someone should just show him what is actually possible with a lighter wingloading.

This brings up a point I've been thinking about recently. For the Hot Swoop Gods™ amongst us: how about next time some low-timer talks about an inappropriate downsize you borrow their rig and show them just what can be done with it? If a picture tells a thousand words, what does a 150ft swoop under a Saphire2 168 do?

[livenletfly 0]

that a great idea! nice thinking.

or we could borrow their gear and hook it in to show them how ugly it looks. lol j/k

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[PKJumper 0]

If your gonna be dumb, you better be tough.

[TomSpoon 2]

I think all you guys are over reacting. Remember this kid has adolescent invincibility. He can't get hurt. Only other people get hurt. Send him up to my DZ and we'll teach him how to hook it.

PS Just Kidding