Some newbie questions on wingloading

[Orange1 0]

I've seen the rule of thumb on WL at 0.1 for every 100 jumps.

There's obviously some kind of curve on this because newbies downsize very fast from student canopies in terms of pure WL. And the canopy very obviously makes a difference: I didn't notice much difference from flying my first student canopies which were 280s to moving to 230s, but I definitely noticed the difference moving from the student 230 to a Pilot 210 - but then not that much moving from there to a 190.

I know this is probably a question that comes from inexperience, but how different, really, is a 0.1 WL difference? And is there a significant difference for example between flying a canopy at 0.95 and 1? I've seen a few comments about 1:1 appropriate maximum for 1st 100 jumps and I guess I'm trying to gauge if for example I am jumping at 0.95 is that 'comfortably' in this limit? If it is 1.05 or 1:1 is that a definite "no"??

And out of interest, is there an absolute maximum WL that anyone should stop at?

(These questions are just to try figure things out in my head - all actual canopies I fly will be appropriately discussed with my instructors.)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[FrogNog 1]

Someone recently posted that there are no "hard limit" answers in skydiving questions. This would be one of those places.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[packerboy 3]

I load my canopy at 1:1 almost exactly with gear on. If I throw on some weights for a RW jump (6lbs usually), there is a slightly noticable difference while landing on a no wind day (or downwind on a light wind day ). Other than that, no noticable difference.

If your interested, talk to your instructors about borrowing someones canopy for a jump or two to find out. Be carefull out there though.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[swoopdog 0]

i've been told that the wingloading is only a dangerous factor (worth worrying about) when you "HAVE TO" land crosswind or down wind. my wingloading is at 1:1.25 and I am very comfortable on it. The other factor is that I am confident with my PLF if I desperately need to. I'll probably be highly argued against but no one has seen my fly

If your going to live in FEAR, why live at all!!!!!

[billvon 2,394]

In general:

Percentage difference is what matters. 280 to 270 is almost unnoticeable but 120 to 110 is hugely noticeable, because the percentage change is the issue (not the absolute change.)

Loading changes become more apparent at around 1 to 1 loadings. The big difference is that the canopy becomes able to completely stop its downward motion; it begins to "plane out" at .8 to 1 or so loadings.

[packerboy 3]

You have to worry about landing crosswind or downwind on every jump because it will happen. Just last week I landed crosswind in someones front yard because of a bad spot. You are not going to get up one day and decide to hook up your lighter loaded crosswind canopy to do some crosswind landings.

I would not be comfortable landing a 2:1 Velocity even on a straight into wind approach. Everybody has different skills, but thinking that you are OK because you are a natural is not the right thing to do. At 30-40 some odd jumps, you are right noone has seen you fly, because most likely you have entered into many situations where you have had to use survival skills to get out of.

Neither have I at close to 400 jumps.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[billvon 2,394]

>i've been told that the wingloading is only a dangerous factor (worth
> worrying about) when you "HAVE TO" land crosswind or down wind.

I think there's a lot more to it than that. A lot of people have been killed due to a low turn into the wind. The canopy doesn't care which direction you're facing; if you turn low you will hit the ground hard enough to kill you at those loadings.

>my wingloading is at 1:1.25 and I am very comfortable on it.

No problem, as long as you can flat turn, flare turn, land crosswind and downwind, flare with rear risers etc. It's not just an issue of loading, it's an issue of what skills you have at what loading. If you can do all that stuff you're in good shape.

[towerrat 0]

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I'll probably be highly argued against but no one has seen my fly
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and so it begins........

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

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[crotalus01 0]

i load my Sabre 1 at about 1:1.25 and i can tell you it IS a noticable difference from the 210 that i was (mostly) on during AFF. it flies FAST. way faster than i was used to on my first few jumps on it. i have had no problems landing it so far, but honestly i couldnt say i could land it in a super tight area. i have landed off DZ between trees and powerlines, but it was more of a luck type thing than skill.
having said that, i was approved by my coach, our S&TA (both of them), and the DZO to purchase and jump the canopy size i have. and, i am not trying to swoop. but in regards to your question, even from my newbie experience there can be a huge difference in flight characteristics between a 210 and a 190.


last bit of advice: trust the folks who have seen you fly. they should know what you are ready to fly.

*ask your instructors about anything in this post or anything posted on dropzone.com!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

edit to ad make damn sure you are able to do flat turns - they can save your ass (they saved mine when i was cut off at about 50 feet on final)>

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[quade 3]

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Someone recently posted that there are no "hard limit" answers in skydiving questions. This would be one of those places.

I'm calling bullshit on this answer.

There IS a hard limit. It's called the ground.

If you think you -may- in over your head, you are.

Even then . . .

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[ripcord4 0]

I have been following the wing loading discussion here for the past day or two. I think we can all agree that a high, aggressive wing loading has the potential to ruin your day by turning you into a grease spot on the ground. All the posts are concerned with wing loadings in excess of 1:1 - let me go the other way - what about wing loadings LESS than 1:1? For example, I have a canopy that I have calculated the WL at .63:1 . I am 175#, the rig (MC-4, 370 sq. ft.) is 50# and I've allowed 10# for all the other stuff. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this low a WL? Basically, I'm looking for the cost - benefit ratio, so to speak. What should I be concerned about? Any hints, tips or advice (other than not jumping the military rig, please) would be appreciated. Please disregard my jump numbers and licence - I am just getting back into the sport after a 20 year layoff - I consider myself a definite "newbie" and need all the help I can get!

[Elisha 1]

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I have been following the wing loading discussion here for the past day or two. I think we can all agree that a high, aggressive wing loading has the potential to ruin your day by turning you into a grease spot on the ground. All the posts are concerned with wing loadings in excess of 1:1 - let me go the other way - what about wing loadings LESS than 1:1? For example, I have a canopy that I have calculated the WL at .63:1 . I am 175#, the rig (MC-4, 370 sq. ft.) is 50# and I've allowed 10# for all the other stuff. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this low a WL? Basically, I'm looking for the cost - benefit ratio, so to speak. What should I be concerned about? Any hints, tips or advice (other than not jumping the military rig, please) would be appreciated. Please disregard my jump numbers and licence - I am just getting back into the sport after a 20 year layoff - I consider myself a definite "newbie" and need all the help I can get!

I know I'm relatively inexperienced, but off the top of my head...

1) May not be able to make it back to the landing area on a long spot or with any wind >5 mph.

2) Just flat out boring with something so big.

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

I have been following the wing loading discussion here for the past day or two. I think we can all agree that a high, aggressive wing loading has the potential to ruin your day by turning you into a grease spot on the ground. All the posts are concerned with wing loadings in excess of 1:1 - let me go the other way - what about wing loadings LESS than 1:1? For example, I have a canopy that I have calculated the WL at .63:1 . I am 175#, the rig (MC-4, 370 sq. ft.) is 50# and I've allowed 10# for all the other stuff. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this low a WL? Basically, I'm looking for the cost - benefit ratio, so to speak. What should I be concerned about? Any hints, tips or advice (other than not jumping the military rig, please) would be appreciated. Please disregard my jump numbers and licence - I am just getting back into the sport after a 20 year layoff - I consider myself a definite "newbie" and need all the help I can get!

Wow... That many jumps under round canopies and just trying a square now. I'm spoiled in comparision, today jumpers with squares...

billyvon said the canopies "plane out" at about 0.8 to 1.0 wingloading and above, and I totally agree. Below that, not planing out... I have noticed this when getting off the student sizes too. In my progression as a student, on a Manta 288 at only 0.65:1 wingload it never planed out (as in I had to always absorb some minor vertical shock in my legs/feet/knees on the Manta 288), but when I started jumping a Sabre 230/190 (now I own a Sabre 170 and plan to stick with it for a good deal number of jumps), landings became much softer than the Manta once I flared properly - to plane it out completely (total zero vertical deceleration) for a tiptoe pillow soft landing on a well-executed flare. I'm still a newbie at all of this but I have been asking people plus reading "Parachute and Its Pilot" by Brian Germain (beginner chapters) which is really helping me...

Anyway, my advice could be totally wrong -- you have way more experience than I do too, in many aspects -- but some people quickly prefer to jump a 1:1 canopy over a 0.65:1 canopy, once they become good enough at flaring.... just because the 1:1 canopy can plane out much more easily in a straght-in approach (completely stop vertical descent for a tip-toe soft landing) on a good flare for softer landing. (Obviously, harder landing if you forget to flare or very badly flare! ... ) ....

It just turns out that very popular firsttimer canopy sizes (0.8 through 1.0) is often the biggest possible canopy that will still "plane" out (capable of completely zeroing out vertical speed on a good flare in a traditional straightin approach).

In either case, I'd bet you WILL be spoiled by a 0.6:1 wingloading compared to the hard landings I hear about from rounds (from oldtimers). You may even prefer it, who knows... It's still super soft anyway.

Just saying what I had noticed about my student-to-novice canopy size progression...and chiming on what billyvon said... disregard my lowtimer advice as needed...

[Orange1 0]

I asked about light wingloading a couple months ago
see the answere here --> http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1589524;#1589524

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.