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RkyMtnHigh

You just don't give a shit...do you?

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You don't care about those you leave behind...you don't care about safety..you don't care who you take out on jump...you could give a rip if you have an AAD..or an RSL and If you were here you'd justify it a million times why you don't have one...WTH are you in this sport and putting our lives at risk as well is all I want to know?...but dammit I'll miss you too...when you're gone. The incidents forum has made me SICK this year...so many didn't have to happen...totally avoidable..I pray that the newbies listen and learn from all of this unnecessary loss.



People grieve in many different ways. This is your way. I think your grief is part of a cumulative effect, i.e. many fatalities or injuries close together in time. The more of these people you knew, the greater the cumulative effect. Also, anger is a part of the grieving process. It is ok to be mad at someone that went in for a dumb (aka totally avoidable) reason.

Your sentiments are valid for you. I do not think they represent sentiments held by jumpers that have been jumping for longer periods of time.

If you jump long enough, there will be many times that there are a series of fatalities or very, serious injuries that cumulatively have a greater effect than if they happened over a much longer time period. There was a two year period where I lost 16 of my friends. People I had known for years and years died in the sport within a very short time period. All accidents were unrelated. They just happened very close together in time.

I think you have displaced anger about specific situations onto what the alive and well jumpers are doing and are trying to blame them for someone else's mishap.

I do not use an RSL. I do not use an AAD when it gets sent back to the shop for re-calibration (I've only had the AAD for a short while). I do not always use an altimeter. I do not always use an audible. I do not always use a helmet. I have never had anyone say to me that I endanger others because I do not use these devices.

I have had people give me the 'Mommy talk' about how much they'd miss me or how bad they would feel if something happened to me that one of these devices could have mitigated or prevented. All I can say to that is 'Tough Tomatoes, I jump to have fun. If hot days mean not wearing a helmet and feeling cool (temperature-wise), then that's what I'll do.'

The part about your post that strikes me as the most dissonant is:
"I pray that the newbies listen and learn from all of this unnecessary loss."

From where I stand, you are one of the newbies. I see this sentiment from many new jumpers that have a bit of experience, yet in the big picture are newbies themselves. Your words convey the message that 'All the advice, all the lessons learned are for those newbie people'. The plain fact is that the advice applies to all jumpers. The unintentional arrogance that your statement and others similar to it conveys pisses me off just as much as the jumpers that go in doing something stupid.

If you really want to do something that may change the future of some jumper somewhere, try writing articles, teaching, coaching, organizing or making posts that offer substance and solutions. I have done all of these things. I started with SPSJ as a print journal in the late 80s, articles in Parachutist over the years (including this year), organizing, teaching and various other sundry tasks to my participation on today's USPA BOD and S&T Comm.

If you want to change what jumpers think and do, then do something concrete about it. Lamenting here does not do anything.

.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

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Hope you have an ADD.

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That would be a particularly bad time for ADD, don't you think? I'd recommend a cypres for that.




OOPS, sorry for my bad spelling.
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

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Hope you have an ADD.

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That would be a particularly bad time for ADD, don't you think? I'd recommend a cypres for that.



OOPS, sorry for my bad spelling.

:)
Bring your ADD to the Byron Boogie for the party Saturday night. It will be a useful, rewarding asset at that time.

"Where are my pants? And why am I wearing this helmet?"

:P

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Not quite sure who you're mad at but it sounded alot like what Iheard in my head back in 2003. lost 3 very very close friends more like brothers. Iknow you care alot about your fellow people jumper or not. Let it out but don't let it eat ya up insde. My heart gos out to the pain ya feel. HUG
--------------------------------------------------
Growing old is mandatory.Growing up is optional!!

D.S.#13(Dudeist Skdiver)

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If you want to change what jumpers think and do, then do something concrete about it

***

At the very least...show a good example to follow, that's what I try to do.
Even if ya only get one person to re-think, in your whole skydiving career...you've helped.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Sorry your thread got trashed by Ron...he's good at that.

I understand what you are saying and thanks for saying what needed to be said.

The rest of you, it seems to be stupidity causing the incidents for the most part.....knock, knock, anybody home?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Sorry your thread got trashed by Ron...he's good at that.

I understand what you are saying and thanks for saying what needed to be said.

The rest of you, it seems to be stupidity causing the incidents for the most part.....knock, knock, anybody home?



This would be what is known as Monday morning quarterbacking.

And on behalf of all my dead friends--whose bodies I stopped counting quite some time back when I ran out of fingers and toes--I resent it.

I understand how K feels--and so should we all, because we all go through the same stages of grief, and her post exemplifies the stage of angeranger--but Jan's response to this post, in particular, was totally on target. And Ron's posts, while not so succinct, were also to the point.

rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

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Sorry your thread got trashed by Ron...he's good at that.



She wanted to blame anyone that does not see life through HER eyes. And she called anyone without an AAD or RSL dangerous.

Thats just not true.

For the record on of the most dangerous situations I have been in was an AFF student that was petrified in the door of a low emergency exit.

SHE put people's lives at risk. We ha d aplane full of people that could not get around her, and she had a death grip on the plane....For christs sake, we were at 4 GRAND.

So I guess I could say that AFF grads are dangerous right? Well I could say that, but it would not be accurate.

People lose people in this sport. Getting emotional about it is natural, but it does NOTHING to fix the problem.

Crying the sky is falling, sending "Vibes" to the deads family does NOTHING to fix the problem.

Education, training, drilling is the key, not just running out and buying an AAD or RSL.

New jumpers think they will be safe if they have an AAD and RSL. Thats just not true and they are lying to themselves.

What she is doing right now is one of the stages skydivers go through.

1. Scared but excited.

2. Confidence that sometimes leads to cocky around 400 jumps. (More often in Young Males). They think that they now "know everything".

3. Then an accident to them or someone they care about happens...They react emotionally. Some quit, others rant just like she just did. They either learn to adjust to it, or they quit. But they don't see anything past their emotions. Some realize that we are playing a dangerous game, others still think it could not happen to them and stay in stage #2.

4. You get to a point where you accept that you will lose people you care about every year. Some try to help (And get called all kinds of names, and get all kinds of grief...thanks), others say "Fuck it" and stop caring.

5. Start back at #1.

Sorry if I "trashed" your post....Sheesh.:S
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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more imprtantly, are there any astrological influences that determine when u fuck yourself up? Im a leo and was born on the 1st of august? Im just afraid of jumping when my horoscope says it's a one star day(out of five stars) Does jumping on a five star day negate the need for a helmet, cypress and aad? I also get very afraid of equipment failure(like a harness falling apart) when mercury turns retrograde. it apparant causes rare failure of all types of equipment. though i have been blessed along with the boats by Father Michael Gitner hence Jesus is with me.

Amen

(not really replying to MakeItHappen, just happend to click on his thingy)(Damn that sounds bad)
"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

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AADs just screw-up the Skydiving gene pool. People who survive no pulls, have children that survive no pulls, and so on, and so on.



Right. Because no-pulls are genetic and only bad skydivers have no-pulls.

Didn't we establish over 35 years ago that the best of the best skydivers occasionally low/no-pull?

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

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I never meant to imply that anyone is immune to loosing altitude awareness. The point here is, 35 years ago Skydivers never relied on a mechanical device to get a good canopy over their head in the event of a mental screw-up. Because of this, I believe there was a higher respect for the ground engrained in every jumper, knowing it was his or her responsibility to pull the ripcord before impact…no backup plan.

It would be an interesting statistic to compare (per capita) CYPRES saves today verses no pulls 20 to 35 years ago.

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The point here is, 35 years ago Skydivers never relied on a mechanical device to get a good canopy over their head in the event of a mental screw-up. Because of this, I believe there was a higher respect for the ground engrained in every jumper, knowing it was his or her responsibility to pull the ripcord before impact…no backup plan.



What about low pull contests and overall % of people who died because of no pull / low pull back in 70s?

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I really dont understand where alot of people get this idea that new jumpers *DEPEND* on devices to save their asses... I know that I for one was trained from the very beginning to pretend that those devices are not there, they are not to be relied upon, and that they may not work... Yes, you have an RSL, pull silver anyway, etc.... Just because someone decides that if they dont have an AAD (i.e. it's sent in for service) and they dont want to jump without it does *NOT* mean that they depend on it, .. It's all about ORM (operational risk management), each person has to assess their own decisisions and each person has to decide on their own what levels of risk they are willing to take. For some people (myself included), I just will not jump without an AAD, period. Does that make me a wuss, or device dependent? NO! It just means I wont jump without one, nothing more to it.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

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It used to be the done thing for 4way teams ( training out of cessnas to get an extra 5 seconds or so by smokin' it down to a grand or thereabouts.(for 8way it was bumped back up to 1500) This was usually mid-week out of sight of the weekenders.

You only do this with people you trust ...a lot.
You don't try this with substandard gear & you also learn to pack very well ...and you slowly realise that eventually you WILL die doing it like this.

If you had a mal you didn't even bother thinking about dumping your reserve ...you just watched your body automatically respond as you had trained it.

You get unconscious your buddies would dump you out as you would for them.
AAD's ??...If you had one no-one would jump with you.

Turbine aircraft, kerumpa- kerumpa and common sense slowly changed all that ..for some of us.

After doing several hundred of these type jumps in a row 1500' seems like dirty high pulling.

That's sorta where base got born... below a grand.

I think I'm saying it's all relative here .
get your AAD but don't dump it in my face!:o

ooooohh ..... tempting fate aren't we??

PS now I'm a real pussy cat and dump at 4000' cause I love flying my parachute so much.

I know you guys are out there :ph34r:

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I really dont understand where alot of people get this idea that new jumpers *DEPEND* on devices to save their asses...



Read the Cypres saves PDF. You will see plenty of jumpers waiting for the CYPRES.

The number of CYPRES saves today is greater than the number of lop pull deaths pre AAD.

There are several reasons.

ONE of them is less attention seems to be paid to the life saving portion of the sport. Instead people focus on points in time and cool canopies and matching jumpsuits. It is only one of the reasons, but it is the most glaring since it is so easy to control.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I really dont understand where alot of people get this idea that new jumpers *DEPEND* on devices to save their asses... I know that I for one was trained from the very beginning to pretend that those devices are not there, they are not to be relied upon, and that they may not work... Yes, you have an RSL, pull silver anyway, etc.... Just because someone decides that if they dont have an AAD (i.e. it's sent in for service) and they dont want to jump without it does *NOT* mean that they depend on it, .. It's all about ORM (operational risk management), each person has to assess their own decisisions and each person has to decide on their own what levels of risk they are willing to take. For some people (myself included), I just will not jump without an AAD, period. Does that make me a wuss, or device dependent? NO! It just means I wont jump without one, nothing more to it.



I guess this is a perfect example of my point. You are a relatively new jumper, you will not jump without an AAD, and I respect your decision. Though, I wonder if you had the opportunity to jump 25-30 years ago, without an AAD, if your decision may have been different, and perhaps your policy today less strict. I am not saying that, “…all new jumpers depend on devices to save their asses…,” what I am saying is that newer jumpers who never made a jump without an AAD, may take more stock in the security of that device, than someone who made their first 1000 jumps without one.

I’m sure there are different reasons for one’s decision to not jump without an AAD, and technically, that decision does make them device dependent, since the jump depends on having the device. Again, I respect anyone’s assessment of their own ORM, just as I would not consider someone reckless if they choose to jump without an AAD.

I’ve had my CYPRES 10 years now…never needed it! Think of all the jumps I could have made with all that money!!

TC.

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I really dont understand where alot of people get this idea that new jumpers *DEPEND* on devices to save their asses... I know that I for one was trained from the very beginning to pretend that those devices are not there, they are not to be relied upon, and that they may not work... Yes, you have an RSL, pull silver anyway, etc

***


I gotta go with Ron on this one...

There is a big difference in 'pretending' you don't have one, and KNOWING that it's up to ONLY you to get something out. Somewhere in the back of your mind there is a percentage of warm fuzzy's knowing that you have an AAD to 'watch out for you' so to speak.

Risk management aside, if you 'won't' jump without a back-up device...than yes you are dependant on it to skydive.
I'm not saying those who wouldn't jump without an AAD or an RSL are pussies...or they rely on 'Training Wheels'. But yes they ARE relying on back up to partake in the activity.:P

And on the other hand, I'm no less safe..and likely MORE safe without those 'back-ups'

After 30 years I've never found myself low unless I'd planned on being there. My 'hard decks' are concrete...because I KNOW what can happen if you fudge here and there....I've SEEN it happen.

I practice my EM's constantly, both in my head when not at the dz, and 10 times before every jump...It's a habit I got into years ago because I was always jumping different kinds of gear.

Walk up to any 10 'newbies' and yell...
"You have a horseshoe at 2000'...FAST~WHAT DO YOU DO?!?"

The results make me glad they have an AAD....!



I'm not just an old guy bitching about 'The Good Old Dayz';)

I've seen too many people land with only the cutaway or, NO handles pulled and survive because they had the aforementioned 'safeguards' to think they are not helpful.

But...I also think that if you would have 'gone in' because you didn't have those back ups...or 'can't jump' without them, you may need to re-evaulate where you are in the sport, and maybe take a few giant steps backwards and get the basic 'Hat -Tricks' of skydiving more ingrained in yourself.

I'm not picking on you by any means Nate so PLEASE don't take it that way...but I'll use you to illustrate a point.

Some time back you had a 'step-through' malfunction that you cut away from.
I'm not saying you did the wrong thing, but did you comlpetely evaluate and understand the situation?
Was the slider down, canopy flying..did you have steering control?
Were the risers SO twisted that it may have bound up the cut away hardware? Was the air below you clear prior to the chop? Did you think about what you would do if it WOULDN'T release or of only one side did?

I had a similar situation a hundred years ago...and just front flipped through the risers to clear it...
NOT saying anyone should do that, but it worked, and was something I'd thought about well in advance to ever having to deal with the problem.

What I think is plain frustration to guys like Ron and me, is threads like this and others... however well meaning and sincere...

That preach 'The Gospel of Safety' according to a relitave newbie that perhaps doesn't even know what they don't know...Yet.




....OKAY..so maybe I AM and old guy just bitchin' about the good old days!:ph34r:










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Ok, lets hit it from that angle... If I was jumping at a time that AADs were not available, I would still jump.. However, once one came out, was reliable, etc. etc. and all my reasons for *NOT* having one were narrowed down to "it's alot of money" you bet your ass I would have one.. If something comes out in the future that makes this sport safer, I will get it (assuming it's made available, I jump a mirage container so skyhook is clearly not an option) ... That said, I dont jump with an RSL, however if Skyhook became an available option to put in my container, I'd get it.. I'll keep up with advances that give me one more chance to survive, but *I WILL NEVER, EVER* count on them to work. I know I'm good as dead if I dont pull, hell, I've been in freefall MANY times over elevated ground that if I didnt pull my cypress still wouldnt save my ass, that doesnt keep me from jumping, but I'm gonna leave that plane with everything I can get that I think gives me another chance to live if the shit really hits the fan. Only thing I have to figure out is "is it gonna save my ass without putting me in undue danger at the same time" ... If it passes that statement, and I can get it, I will.... Nothing wrong, nothing NEW with wanting to live for another jump, and this does not make me dependent on a device, or even consider that this device is going to save me.. NOTHING in my EPs takes into consideration the fact that I have an AAD. If someones EPs do take that into consideration, they definately need a talking to.

Now, is it reckless to jump without one? NO. Will I do it? NO. Some people think it's reckless for me to jump w/o an RSL, that's fine, let them think that.. I've weighed the risks on my own and decided to go without, so be it.. It's everyones choice, ... I know just as many old jumpers that use cypress as new jumpers too, its not just the newbies..

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

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If something comes out in the future that makes this sport safer, I will get it (assuming it's made available, I jump a mirage container so skyhook is clearly not an option) ... That said, I dont jump with an RSL, however if Skyhook became an available option to put in my container, I'd get it



Why don't you just go buy a Vector? If you think it is THAT much safer, why not just go buy one?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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"it's alot of money" you bet your ass I would have one...
if Skyhook became an available option to put in my container, I'd get it


Skyhook is available if you get a new container. The only reason not to get one, as far as I can tell, is money. The Relative Workshop makes excellent containers.

I'll submit that the coming of the Skyhook is very similar to the coming of the Cypres. It's new, and it's considerably more expensive than just keeping what you have. When you get new gear, will you be getting a Skyhook?

Jumping is about risk mitigation. Each person evaluates the risks. When someone is way at one end (swooping 1.8 loaded canopy with 135 jumps) or way at the other (really trusts all the equipment to be a significant factor in their safety), a lot of people cry foul.

Your safety add-ons (RSL, AAD) will not affect your safety in the vast majority of situations that you will find yourself in. Depending on them, and considering them to be an important part of your jumping, might well be evidence that you're (and this is the rhetorical you) ascribing more importance to them than they deserve.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Im' not picking on you by any means Nate so PLEASE don't take it that way...but I'll use you to illustrate a point.



But I appreciate the constructive type of picking on me :ph34r:

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Some time back you had a 'step-through' malfunction that you cut away from.
I'm not saying you did the wrong thing, but did you comlpetely evaluate and understand the situation?
Was the slider down, canopy flying..did you have steering control?
Were the risers SO twisted that it may have bound up the cut away hardware? Was the air below you clear prior to the chop? Did you think about what you would do if it WOULDN'T release or of only one side did?



That was obviously a mal that gave me lots of time to evaluate what was happening.. The canopy did open, the slider came down, ... I probably could have landed it, .. but I just didnt feel good about it, so I went with my gut instinct and got rid of it for my reserve (because I do trust it) .... I had the time, and actually *DID* clear my airspace, I knew where all the canopies anywhere near me were before I did it.. I was ready for whatever came. Some say I should have landed it, well, they can go ahead and do that.. My first mal on the other hand, had me spinning on my back at what my neptune says was about a 77mph speed to the ground... I didnt take alot of time to think about much of anything in that case, my EPs took over..

But that said, I guess I dont understand your point. :P

As far as being a newbie, preaching some gospel of safety, ... I'm not trying to preach anything... Safety is everyones choice, how far they take safety is their choice... I've made mine, and I just stated what they were... I just dont like the talk that's been on many threads here lately saying that we are dependent, cuz I just dont see it... I've made choices some of the old dogs wont make, but I'm not dependent on anything but my own throw of the pilot chute when I want to stop falling.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

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But that said, I guess I dont understand your point.:P




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Which is my point EXACTLY!:ph34r:





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As far as being a newbie, preaching some gospel of safety, ... I'm not trying to preach anything...



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Comment not really directed at you personally, a 'general' summation regarding the tone and content of some recent threads





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I just dont like the talk that's been on many threads here lately saying that we are dependent, cuz I just dont see it...



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Maybe it's semantics here...but if someone won't jump without a certain backup device...they're dependent on it...not saying they rely on it...but ARE dependent on it to get in the air.


Just curious...why no RSL?












~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Just curious...why no RSL?



No RSL because I thought about it, alot, weighed the risk of not having an RSL to the risk of having an RSL (because they exist both ways) and decided that I'd rather not have one... 2 very different chops, and I had no problem carrying out my procedures. Seeing that the device can work for and against you, and I have seen twice that I would have been fine without it, my logic says that the device now has a greater chance of hurting me than helping me do something I can already do on my own... Flame away, but that's just how I see it... Just like some of you dont like AADs and I wont jump without one, it's all apart of our own little risk management thing we do.. ;)

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

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