RkyMtnHigh 0 #1 August 8, 2005 You don't care about those you leave behind...you don't care about safety..you don't care who you take out on jump...you could give a rip if you have an AAD..or an RSL and If you were here you'd justify it a million times why you don't have one...WTH are you in this sport and putting our lives at risk as well is all I want to know?...but dammit I'll miss you too...when you're gone. The incidents forum has made me SICK this year...so many didn't have to happen...totally avoidable..I pray that the newbies listen and learn from all of this unnecessary loss. _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #2 August 8, 2005 yes, i give almost one shit per day to the water treatment facility. wierd rant btw... i guess it's cool that you care so much but, damn, don't make yourself sick over it."Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timbarrett 0 #3 August 9, 2005 Amen, i am new to this but opening up dropzone.com this year and seeing so often a new incident report waiting to be read does make me wonder about how those who have been in the sport for many years cope.. don't stop caring..."Work hard, play hard and don't whinge" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #4 August 9, 2005 Quoteyou could give a rip if you have an AAD..or an RSL and If you were here you'd justify it a million times why you don't have one...WTH are you in this sport and putting our lives at risk as well is all I want to know? Just because you are not comfertable without and RSL or AAD does not mean that it is dangerous. Most people would be better saved if they did 50 cutaways on a 3 canopy set up than buying an RSL or AAD. WTH are you in this sport if you feel you NEED devices to save you? If you want to "save people" you would do better by making everyone jump Manta's than AAD's. If you are sick of the death....Quit and cut all ties from any jumpers that you know. As you meet more jumpers the rate of your friends dying will do nothing but increase. Sorry but your Rant hit a nerve. Just because YOU are not comfertable without an AAD or RSL gives you no right to claim those without them don't care about safety. Safety is about training and drilling, not buying toys."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amanduh 0 #5 August 9, 2005 QuoteWTH are you in this sport if you feel you NEED devices to save you? Same thing I was wondering... (No offense to the poster..but I feel it's a valid point) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #6 August 9, 2005 I respect your opinion Ron. As I said in the other forum..I primarily rely on myself, but having backups isn't such a bad idea either. What about the scenario that I'm knocked out and can't pull? _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #7 August 9, 2005 QuoteWhat about the scenario that I'm knocked out and can't pull? Hope you have an ADD. But ranting that people are not safe without all these gadgets is a touch much. I dont jump with a RSL due to the canopy I jump. Most people who jump elliptical's loaded fairly heavy dont. If it spins up on opening I need to chop and I would like to get somewhat stable before I pull without having the rsl pull when I'm still all jacked up. I know the risks and I accept them.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RkyMtnHigh 0 #8 August 9, 2005 Ok..fine..rant is over. _________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #9 August 9, 2005 QuoteAs I said in the other forum..I primarily rely on myself, but having backups isn't such a bad idea either. What about the scenario that I'm knocked out and can't pull? Please, read this report and tell me how many saves were from people being knocked out. http://www.cypres-usa.com/saves05b.pdf Being knocked out is the most often used reason for buying a CYPRES. But the truth is the #1 reason for having a fire is "I fucked up". An AAD is a good thing, but the actual fire reports show that being knocked out is a VERY small percentage of saves. There are some on that list where the person was saved TWICE!!!!!! Answer: 16 out of 293 5%. Most were big ways of Freefly collisions. I'll admit it is more than I thought, but the number one reason? Just flat out lost track of altitude and forgot to pull. Opening a parachute, the most important thing you have to do in the next 60 seconds. Read the reports and tell me what you think."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #10 August 9, 2005 QuoteBeing knocked out is the most often used reason for buying a CYPRES. But the truth is the #1 reason for having a fire is "I fucked up". You make it sound like people who "fuck up" deserve to die. I hope we agree that we are all prone to fuck up some day for no reason at all. I for one choose to stack the odds in my favour, should that happen.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #11 August 9, 2005 QuoteYou make it sound like people who "fuck up" deserve to die. I hope we agree that we are all prone to fuck up some day for no reason at all. I for one choose to stack the odds in my favour, should that happen. Thats what you think. I just simply stated that the reason that most people give for wanting an AAD is not even close to the number one reason they fire. The number one reason is people fuck up. So maybe a better reason for saying you want an AAD is "I want an AAD cause it is more likely that I will fuck up. And even if I fuck up, I don't want to die." But that does not sound as cool as "In case I get knocked out." AND it requires people to admit they might screw up... Statistics show that being knocked out is one of the SMALLEST reasons an AAD fires, but why is it the MOST common reason given? Also, knowing that the #1 reason they fire is lets just say "Failure to pull the reserve after a cutaway". Then in my little mind it makes more sense to work on WHY people didn't pull the reserve after a mal, rather than just say "Thank God he had an AAD" and call it a day. Finding out how to prevent these accidents (and make no mistake an AAD fire IS an Accident) should be the priority over just yelling at people to get an AAD."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #12 August 9, 2005 QuoteWhat about the scenario that I'm knocked out and can't pull? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hope you have an ADD. That would be a particularly bad time for ADD, don't you think? I'd recommend a cypres for that. Edited for double entendre (probably misspelled that, too) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,120 #13 August 9, 2005 I don't think he intends it to sound like that. It's just that, well, if you only get a Cypres because of other people fucking up, you might ignore situations that are leading you to fuck up, or you might now own up responsibility for your own fate. The best thing you can do to stack the odds in your own favor is to keep current on emergency procedures (which means practice cutaways, not just touching your handles), keeping your gear in good repair, using PLFs as necessary, controlling who you jump with, and not getting into situations that might distract you from the very important job of pulling. A Cypres should only come after all that stuff. I have one, and I have an RSL. I didn't always (well, they didn't exist in their current form when I started jumping). They're nice add-ons, but they are not what keeps you safe. YOU keep you safer. NOTHING keeps you safe. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,120 #14 August 9, 2005 That was mean, big D... Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #15 August 9, 2005 Quote I just simply stated that the reason that most people give for wanting an AAD is not even close to the number one reason they fire. The number one reason is people fuck up. So maybe a better reason for saying you want an AAD is "I want an AAD cause it is more likely that I will fuck up. And even if I fuck up, I don't want to die." But that does not sound as cool as "In case I get knocked out." AND it requires people to admit they might screw up... I know what you meant. It was just nice to get it spelled out, for whoever might dig up this post some day. I have no problem admitting that I might one day f*ck up badly. I hope it doesn't happen, but better safe than... dead.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #16 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhat about the scenario that I'm knocked out and can't pull? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hope you have an ADD. That would be a particularly bad time for ADD, don't you think? I'd recommend a cypres for that. DAMN beat me to it :))SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverchick 0 #17 August 9, 2005 QuoteThe incidents forum has made me SICK this year...so many didn't have to happen This year has made a lot of sick. I have been in this sport for 6 years now and can no longer count on my hands the freinds that I have lost. Do I regret being a part of this sport? HELL NO!!! Do I wish I had never met these people ? Just the opposit!!!! For those of you don't know I had an very bad accident. When it happened many of friends couldn't believe it was me. I was so safety consious all the time. BUT I FUCKED UP. It didn't mean that I didn't care about safety or my friends. It means I am human as are all of freinds that are no longer here. Our job is simply to mourn, learn from thier mistakes and most importantly LIVE ON. Mother Hen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #18 August 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteBeing knocked out is the most often used reason for buying a CYPRES. But the truth is the #1 reason for having a fire is "I fucked up". You make it sound like people who "fuck up" deserve to die. I hope we agree that we are all prone to fuck up some day for no reason at all. I for one choose to stack the odds in my favour, should that happen. I didnt get THAT from his post...SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #19 August 9, 2005 Agreed the best way to avoid the kind of incident where a cypres fires is not to need a cypres in the first place... but when they occur how do we learn what they did wrong if they go in? if they had an AAD we can then ask "why the hell did you cut away and then not pull" get an answer and LEARN, so that others can train what not to do and LESSEN the number of cypres activating incidents. I FREELY ADMIT I might fuckup, and I might dislocate my shoulder, I might blackout to a head impact or an unknown medical condition.. in all of these cases I want to be around to learn from my mistake or incident .. so I have a cypres. I would much rather learn from my mistakes then die from them.. same thought for everyone else I'd rather chew out a friend for loosing altitude awareness then morn him/her Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frost 1 #20 August 9, 2005 QuoteYou don't care about those you leave behind...you don't care about safety..you don't care who you take out on jump...you could give a rip if you have an AAD..or an RSL and If you were here you'd justify it a million times why you don't have one...WTH are you in this sport and putting our lives at risk as well is all I want to know?...but dammit I'll miss you too...when you're gone. The incidents forum has made me SICK this year...so many didn't have to happen...totally avoidable..I pray that the newbies listen and learn from all of this unnecessary loss. You must be one of those happy-happy joy-joy feelings type of girl? Well at least you look kinda hot in your avatar.SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #21 August 9, 2005 Quotebut when they occur how do we learn what they did wrong if they go in? if they had an AAD we can then ask "why the hell did you cut away and then not pull" get an answer and LEARN, so that others can train what not to do and LESSEN the number of cypres activating incidents Do you see me telling people not to jump an AAD?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #22 August 9, 2005 Quote Being knocked out is the most often used reason for buying a CYPRES. But the truth is the #1 reason for having a fire is "I fucked up". I had to follow a knocked out skydiver down and all I could think is I hope he has a Cypres. He had one, landed unconscious woke up from the landing impact, stayed two nights in the hospital and was fit again 4 days later.. I'm glad I have a Cypres but from time to time, if the night before was a bit wilder then it should have been, I forget to turn on my Cypres. But I would never ride the plain down because of this. If you would not jump if the Cypres has not been invented, you should not jump at all. My 2 centavos...Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hopnhook 0 #23 August 9, 2005 AADs just screw-up the Skydiving gene pool. People who survive no pulls, have children that survive no pulls, and so on, and so on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #24 August 9, 2005 Don't worry. HP canopies are out there, they are going to correct AAD's mistakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #25 August 9, 2005 QuoteBut that does not sound as cool as "In case I get knocked out." AND it requires people to admit they might screw up... That's a subtle but accurate bit of psychology - skydiving egos are a bitch (there is a large element in the sport that can't admit this is a dangerous sport who needs to be aware of it and be prepared. It's in strange contrast to the empty headed risk taker attitudes, even though sometimes it's the same person - I've never been able to figure out that mix - the self proclaimed daredevil that talks about how safe it is for others in the sport (confused Icon symbol here) eg - the newbie swooper wannabe that has the AAD and RSL) I'd like to treat AAD saves just like fatality reports - because if your AAD fires it's good because it helped you live, but you screwed up somewhere to let it get to that point. I think this is Ron's point. Get an AAD if you want, but be aware that using it is a failure in training and reaction - so an AAD save is a gift/2nd chance. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
