What makes someone a good canopy pilot?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I could have posted this in the "Swooping and Canopy Control" forum, but feared that it might get lost in there as that forum seems to be more gear towards swooping while what I'm about to say is more broader in scope.

I was talking yesterday with one of the DZs experienced CReW dawgs and we were talking about the future of canopy coaching at the DZ as well as canopy flight in general. And the topic of what makes someone a good canopy pilot came up. We both agreed that being able to safely land your canopy time and time again were good qualities, but do they make you a good canopy pilot? We also both agreed that being able to swoop shows a certain skill level, but does that mean that you are a good canopy pilot just because you can swoop? Hmmm ...

Keeping in mind that this fellow is a CReW dawg, but here is what he feels makes people good canopy pilots:

1) A good canopy pilot is someone who is passionate about canopy flight. It is someone who is will to dedicate time towards improving their skills. The freefall environment rocks (IMHO), but it doesn't always provide enough precise canopy control exposure.

2) A good canopy pilot is someone who is willing to go up to altitude and spend time flying their canopy. Once again, point #1 hits upon this as well. The freefall environment is fun, but it doesn't allow us the same amount of time to get to know our canopies the way we could learn the canopy by spending more time at altitude flying the canopy.

3) Finally, a good canopy pilot is someone who is able to fly relative with other canopies (both traditional CReW as well as non-contact CReW). This fellow's analogy was simple. The only time we get to fly our canopies with precision in the freefall environment is only within the last few seconds of our skydives. But when flying relative to other canopies, we get to learn to fly with percision for most of the jump.

Any thoughts and opinions on what you think makes someone a good canopy pilot?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,874]

I agree with points 1 and 3 but not 2. There are simply no references up in the air. An airplane pilot can practice maintaining a 200fpm climb throughout a manuever, or can practice not deviating from a given airspeed. A canopy pilot has no such references. You can do 100 crappy front riser turns and flares up high and never know they are crappy; as far as you can tell, you leveled out at 1 inch above the imaginary surface and planed out for 100 feet, when in reality you never even achieved level flight during the flare.

I've heard this a lot. "I practiced a lot up high, so I'm as good as someone with 500 jumps even if I only have 100 jumps!" To me, that makes about as much sense as saying "I creep for hours and so I'm much better than everyone else who only creeps for 5 minutes before each jump!" Actually doing 4-way is a better way to practice 4-way than doing it on a creeper. Creeping helps, but is in no way a replacement for actual airtime.

[ianmdrennan 2]

A good canopy pilot knows (and takes) the appropriate course of action given foreseen and unforeseen circumstances. They are adaptable and comfortable with their wing and environment.

A good canopy pilot has a good understanding of their wing and canopy flight concepts.

Sure there's more but I'm too tired to think right now

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Ron 10]

A good canopy pilot is someone that can do more than one thing under canopy.

For example;

I was on a 4 way rotations team, and have been in 16 way diamonds.

I have a PRO rating and have done almost 100 live demos that required a PRO rating, to include several stadiums.

I have swooped canopies as small as 69 square feet, and flown canopies as large as tandem canopies.

I have jumped rounds.

If a guy can swoop, but not do CReW he may be a better swooper than me, but maybe not a better canopy pilot. If a guy was on the World Record 70 way, but can't swoop a Velocity96 the same thing.

I think that to be a good canopy pilot you should be able to do several different types of canopy flight.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChrisL 2]

A good canopy pilot wont end my life while I'm making my
conservative, stick with the pattern, straight in approach.

__

My mighty steed

[davelepka 4]

***A good canopy pilot wont end my life while I'm making my
conservative, stick with the pattern, straight in approach.



NICE

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I agree with points 1 and 3 but not 2. There are simply no references up in the air. An airplane pilot can practice maintaining a 200fpm climb throughout a manuever, or can practice not deviating from a given airspeed. A canopy pilot has no such references. You can do 100 crappy front riser turns and flares up high and never know they are crappy; as far as you can tell, you leveled out at 1 inch above the imaginary surface and planed out for 100 feet, when in reality you never even achieved level flight during the flare.
/reply]

Do the digital altimeters like the Neptune or the Vector sample finely enough and respond quickly enough to give useful results? They promise to give this sort of information...if I didn't have enough to think about already the data would be very helpful for me to get a feel for the visual descent to landing.

• Quote

[johnny1488 1]

There is a lot more, but I think a good canopy pilot could pick up any rig, throw out a P/C and fly whatever comes out with a decent amount of precision.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[twnsnd 1]

Also accuracy, which I am not too good at.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[cocheese 0]

All of the above
A good canopy pilot is someone nobody worries about.
They are not on "The List" of who we think is dangerous/next one to get hurt.
They help prevent people from jumping too small or fast canopies too soon.
They watch others skills and offer advice.
They can walk all over your canopy at 2500feet and can grab your pilot chute with their feet.Then swoop down and be almost done packing by the time you step into the hangar. Bastards ! It's not fair whaaaa.

[Romericus 0]

very good point.

Landing with good accuracy is very important. Swooping is all the rage, but can you take that VX 38 in slowly (relatively) and land in the center of the peas? Landing where you want to land is important for when you need to make an off landing.

[crutch 0]

Ron, I like everything you said, but would like to add, he/she is never satisfied with how well they flew their canopy and are always critical of their own performance.

I have landed my Sabre 135, on a two lane street in Jax Beach, crossways. Some people say that makes me a good canopy pilot, I don't know, while I was doing it, I just thought what kinda stupidity have you gotten yourself into this time!

blue skies,

art

[Ron 10]

Quote

Ron, I like everything you said, but would like to add, he/she is never satisfied with how well they flew their canopy and are always critical of their own performance.

Very nice....

Kinda like the old aviation saying:

Superior pilots use superior planning and superior knowledge to avoid having to use superior skill.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[yoink 321]

a good canopy pilot has real situational awareness... they know where all the other canopies in the air are because they don't stop looking around...

[crazy 0]

Quote

I agree with points 1 and 3 but not 2. There are simply no references up in the air. [snip snip] You can do 100 crappy front riser turns and flares up high and never know they are crappy; as far as you can tell, you leveled out at 1 inch above the imaginary surface and planed out for 100 feet, when in reality you never even achieved level flight during the flare.

Are you rating pilots by their swooping abilities only?
If it is only about swooping, your are absolutely right; it's foolish to claim "I practiced a lot up high, so I'm as good as someone with 500 jumps even if I only have 100 jumps!" However, the quality of a pilot doesn't have to be estimated on the swooping skills only. A pilot able to perform a clean barrel roll would be a good (even excellent) pilot, even with swoops not longer than 50 feet.
If pilot skills are not only about swooping, then going up to altitude and spending time flying the canopy, alone or with others, definitely helps building strong pilot skills. 2000 feet is definitely not the right altitude to start experimenting with complex radical manoeuvers, or initiate a tight devil's dance (or whatever group manoeuver) with your buddies.

--
Come
Skydive Asia

[riddler 0]

Quote

A pilot able to perform a clean barrel roll would be a good (even excellent) pilot

Beg pardon. I know what a barrel roll is in freefall, but what is a barrel roll while under canopy?

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[yoink 321]

go to skydivingmovies.com, look at the landing and swooping section, and there are a few short films at the top under 'Barrel Rolls' (unsurprisingly)...

then shake your head, and go "you shouldn't be able to do that "

or at least that's what I did

[riddler 0]

That's just a 360 under canopy. They aren't really turning completely upside-down. It looks upside down because of the angle. Or am I wrong?

I've never heard to them referred to as barrel rolls before. Seems kinda misleading.

Of course doing it that low to the ground seems fairly dangerous

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[yoink 321]

there was a really good article written by John LeBlanc on how to do them, i think on rec dot... as I remember, he says you need a huge wingloading and loads of speed to avoid falling into your canopy, but it is a barrel roll...

oh, and needless to say, he didn't recommend people doing them


Edit: found a cut n paste of it... Here

[riddler 0]

Yep - just talked to a guy that says he can do them very easy. Of course, he flies a 60 square foot canopy Now I know ...

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[KrisFlyZ 0]

Quote

A good canopy pilot wont end my life while I'm making my
conservative, stick with the pattern, straight in approach.

I agree. But that does not make you a good or even safe canopy pilot

Why?

I was in my traditional approach pattern and a canopy landed under me(He was crosswind..I was about 10' above the canopy). Later the DZO came up to me and asked me if I saw the other canopy. I told him "not until he was in my field of vision". Then I started to explain how I was the first to enter the pattern and how the other jumper was crosswind, etc.

He said, "I know you are not at fault but that does'nt matter much if you have a canopy collision at 50 ft. Keep your head on a snivel and watch out for canopies at all times."

While you can hardly call the other jumper in this case a good canopy pilot. However, I did not do everything I could to avoid the close call. Both of us were equally oblivious.

Now I choose the spot I am going to land at and fly a pattern that puts me a safe distance away from the other canopies. I am also proactively watching out for other canopies.

Kris.

[billvon 2,874]

>Are you rating pilots by their swooping abilities only?

Not at all. But much of what makes a good canopy pilot is the ability to manuever near the ground. It doesn't take much skill to yank a toggle and avoid someone at 2000 feet, but it takes a tremendous amount of skill to avoid a head-on collision at 50 feet and still land safely in an obstacle filled landing area. And to do that you need experience manuevering a canopy close to the ground. You can really only get that experience by practicing such manuevers close to the ground.

>A pilot able to perform a clean barrel roll would be a good (even
>excellent) pilot, even with swoops not longer than 50 feet.

Not really by my definition. To me, the definition of an excellent canopy pilot is one who can land his canopy well under 99.999% of the conditions he might encounter. That's the primary purpose of a parachute - to land you safely after jumping from an airplane. Aerobatics at 5000 feet are fun, and they surely take practice and skill to perfect, but if someone can do the most awesome barrel roll in the world but can't flat turn at 50 feet, they are (in my book) not very good canopy pilots.

[twnsnd 1]

I don't just mean hitting the peas. I am also refering to being able to hit the gates safely on a regular basis. I know some people who can hit the gates, but they scare the shit out of me doing it.

If someone on the ground was nervous or scared watching you approach and land, you need work.

-We are the Swoophaters. We have travelled back in time to hate on your swoops.-

[caldwellbuilder 0]

A good canopy pilot will always be learning more
about his canopy. CRW is an excellent platform
for getting feedback about your canopy's
performance.Sticking with the same canopy for at
least until you're sure you can't learn anything
more will enable you to refine your swoops. Finding
a canopy that challenges you will help you learn
faster, but remember to step down one size at a
time.

[Kris 0]

Quote

Yep - just talked to a guy that says he can do them very easy. Of course, he flies a 60 square foot canopy Now I know ...

IIRC, you have to be loaded at about 1.6 or higher to really be able to pull off that maneuver. I've tried it on my Stiletto at 1.4 after front-risering it to build up speed and I just don't have enough juice to do it.

When the lines start to go slack on you during the attempt though...well, it definitely gets your heart going.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™