Amazon 7 #26 August 19, 2005 QuoteI'll be doing it on my first rig. My Fusion 210 and Smart 220 will soon be sent to Velocity Sports Equipment so that my Infinity can be shipped fully assembled and ready to jump. Very good choice. Jeff and Kelly RAWK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #27 August 19, 2005 Quote Was that shipped from a current manufacturer? Yes, that's a Wings "Freefly" handle. I wouldn't use it nor recommend it. The inside of the pilot chute should have webbing reinforcement on the inside and the handle should be sewn to the Apex lengthwise between the tab and the handle. Plain and simple the design sucks. The rig quality is fine, but that's one item I firmly believe should be discontinued in it's current form.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superman32 0 #28 August 19, 2005 Your rigger who is felling tired/sick, sleepy, or fresh and fully awake, packing his x rig of the day is just as likely to miss something as the mfr.'s rigger in the same situation. Honest human error does happen and CANNOT be eliminated. Shit happens. It think it has more to do with your level of trust. Would you rather have your rig packed by a new rigger who is doing it by the numbers and tripple checking all his steps, or would you rather have someone who has been doing it for so many years that he/she becomes complacent? Inveniam Viam aut Faciam I'm back biatches! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hondo 0 #29 August 19, 2005 Sounds familiar. ---------- I used to think skydiving would be cheaper then smoking crack! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #30 August 19, 2005 QuoteI'll be doing it on my first rig. My Fusion 210 and Smart 220 will soon be sent to Velocity Sports Equipment so that my Infinity can be shipped fully assembled and ready to jump. Good choice. Kelly packs my reserve and Valinda's reserve. The guy is picky. I like that in a rigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #31 August 19, 2005 QuoteWould you rather have your rig packed by a new rigger who is doing it by the numbers and tripple checking all his steps, or would you rather have someone who has been doing it for so many years that he/she becomes complacent? I've been jumping 30 years, a TM for 13 years, and an air traffic controller for 21 year. I'm not even close to being complacent. That's a personality flaw, not a function of experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #32 August 19, 2005 In this case I know the riggers who pack mine QUITE well. They do not pack all that many rigs in a week. They do spend a lot of time making a superior rig and sometimes they get to assemble them .. when requested. I trust them implicitely and.... I have bought Jeff at Velocity a couple bottles now. The dude rocks. Kelly has packed it a few times as well and guess what.. he RAWKS too. Everyone I have met at Velocity is commited to excellence and... the best service I have seen in a long time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ECVZZ 0 #33 August 19, 2005 Holy shit...I wouldn't jump that thing either! I could tell it was a FF handle, but it honestly looks like a relic, instead of a current production item. All the pc's I've seen have the handle attached directly to the apex, just as you described. Any idea of the reasoning behind this design? G. Jones "I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around, the more I think it might not be a bad idea." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kimblair13 0 #34 August 19, 2005 Strong did some work on my rig. Put in hard housing for the cutaway cables and put in some new reserve system and re-packed my reserve. About 2 weeks later I had a reserve ride. I was happy with it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RossDagley 0 #35 August 19, 2005 I had Aerodyne build my rig and pack it back in June, but then had a very experienced instructor put the first jump on it (I had a sort of Karma thing going on, not that I didn't trust Aerodyne, more a 'Christine' car thing ) I'm also much happier now I've had a reserve repack by my local rigger - nice to know its not newspaper in there Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #36 August 19, 2005 I know Wings come shipped with Cazar PC's... I take it Sunrise add handles on to PC's they buy in? Are you saying the handle should be sewn directly onto the PC (with reinforcing inside) and nothing between handle and the PC? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skip 0 #37 August 19, 2005 QuoteYes, that's a Wings "Freefly" handle. I wouldn't use it nor recommend it. The inside of the pilot chute should have webbing reinforcement on the inside and the handle should be sewn to the Apex lengthwise between the tab and the handle. I would definitely like to hear some more conversation about this preferably involving the manufacturer. neil Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #38 August 19, 2005 QuoteNow if I bought a rig from Square 1/ Paragear/ any of the other "gear stores" I would want it inspected by the one I trust ---- no offense "gear stores" I always encouraged my customers, especially new jumpers, to have a local-to-them rigger assemble and pack their new gear. That way I could be sure that they knew they got what they ordered, and the new jumpers could start to develop a relationship with the person most likely to be maintaining their gear in the future. I have had the manufacturer do some work on my rig that involved disassembling and reassembling and then repacking the canopies. I'd trust them to work on my rig anytime... but if I need the same work done again now I'll have the rigger at the local loft do it simply because it's more convenient. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #39 August 19, 2005 QuoteI know Wings come shipped with Cazar PC's... I take it Sunrise add handles on to PC's they buy in? how do you know they come with Cazer PC's? I called down there not to long ago and got my PC replaced but is not and never has been a Cazer PC. Cazer does not use kevlar tapes between the layers of the bridle nor use kevlar lines for the kill liine like wings does. or at least my cazer PC that is on my wifes rig is wrong then... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #40 August 19, 2005 QuoteWell? Do you feel that confident or would you want an independant rigger to examine ther work done to ensure QC was doing their job? Nope, I wouldn't let a manufacturer do it. I'll assemble and check it myself then turn it over to my rigger to have him do another once-over of it all before it gets packed. Hell, even at 150 jumps when I got my first all-new gear, I still hung up the main & reserve on my own, crawled inside the cells, and checked every crossport & stitch on the canopies and the container after my rigger showed me what to look for. I like having that personal knowledge that everything's okay.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites karenmeal 0 #41 August 19, 2005 I wouldn't let a manufacturer assemble and pack my whole set up. For one thing, I would like to be the one that does the inspection, and also I think it is very important to have another set of eyes check the rig out. Its kinda like when you're writing a paper and you get someone else to proof-read it, often they find more mistakes than you would be able to. Even though we expect the people that build our rigs to be infallible, they're not. I should know, I live with one of those people. Better to have more people involved in the QC. -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Superman32 0 #42 August 19, 2005 QuoteEven though we expect the people that build our rigs to be infallible, they're not. I should know, I live with one of those people. Better to have more people involved in the QC. How much QC is involved when your rigger packs it. How many extra eyes get to see his work? I can kinda see that if you get brand new gear and you want to check it over yourself, but there is no guarantee that your rigger is not going to be the one that F's up? Just playing devil's advocate Inveniam Viam aut Faciam I'm back biatches! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallinWoman 1 #43 August 20, 2005 Nope....I jumped demo gear once. And only once. I was demo-ing the container and had the hardest opening of my life. Broke multiple lines...it was there but it was not square. Had to chop. I am just happy that hard opening did not injure me. I will always have a rigger I trust or myself check the gear and repack it before I jump it. ~Anne I'm a Doll!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MikeForsythe 0 #44 August 20, 2005 QuoteWould you let a manufacturer assemble and pack your gear?Yes, without hesitation. That is like saying would you let the car manufacture assemble your car? The bottom line is that no one is perfect including the manufactures or your rigger. There is only one person that is and that could walk on water and even he was not a rigger! In general, most manufactures will have an advantage over an independent rigger. I don’t know of any independent riggers that have the resources in-house that some manufactures do. How many riggers are ISO certified, have engineering, material testing, quality assurance, documentation, production and a parts departments? On the other hand, the thing I liked about being an independent rigger was that I was not bound by time or other outside circumstances. I encouraged and provided owners the opportunity to pull the ripcord at repack time so that they would know what it felt like and watch the inspection and packing process to become better educated about their gear, how it works and what is done to it. And as far as the manufacturer missing something during inspection, any rigger could do the same thing so that is a meaningless argument. Having an independent rigger do the assembly does not add an “extra link” rather you have substituted a link since the manufacture will not be inspecting what the rigger did. If you want to add the “extra link” then you would have to either have your local rigger take apart the factory assembly, inspect and reassemble it or visa versa which would be the ultimate check and balance for safety. I have been asked and have seen post here over the years that ask “how could that happen?” The answer is simple, we are human, we don’t know everything and we are not perfect. Look at the auto industry as an example. They spend billions of dollars on engineering, research, development, production, inspection and automation, yet there are still thousands of recalls every year, some serious or even fatal. So in the end, keep asking questions, it is what helps inspire us and hopefully makes us a little better at what we do.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 3 #45 August 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteWould you let a manufacturer assemble and pack your gear?Yes, without hesitation. You say that because you look around you, and you know--up close and personal--the people who would be doing the assembly and packing. You have an acceptable comfort level because it's familiar to you. Would you feel the same way if your rig were coming from up the street, down the street, an hour or so southwest or from California? I know I'd be a lot more comfortable if I knew the identity of the person who actually did the work. As an aside, my gear came from a rigger with a gear business in Arizona, and it arrived fully assembled and partially packed, because he felt I should pack my own main. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MikeForsythe 0 #46 August 20, 2005 QuoteYou say that because you look around you, and you know--up close and personal--the people who would be doing the assembly and packing. You have an acceptable comfort level because it's familiar to you. I love it when people speak for me, especially when what they say is wrong! My statement would stand no matter which manufacture I bought from. I like the fact of having the manufacture verify that everything works the way it should and that there are no compatibility issues etc.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites karenmeal 0 #47 August 20, 2005 QuoteHow much QC is involved when your rigger packs it. How many extra eyes get to see his work? I can kinda see that if you get brand new gear and you want to check it over yourself, but there is no guarantee that your rigger is not going to be the one that F's up? Just playing devil's advocate I am my rigger. So this adds one more person to the chain of people inspecting a rig. Always a good thing. Maybe I am fairly picky, But I also HATE jumping other peoples pack jobs, and other peoples rigs. -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 3 #48 August 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou say that because you look around you, and you know--up close and personal--the people who would be doing the assembly and packing. You have an acceptable comfort level because it's familiar to you. I love it when people speak for me, especially when what they say is wrong! My statement would stand no matter which manufacture I bought from. I like the fact of having the manufacture verify that everything works the way it should and that there are no compatibility issues etc. And yet there are stories on this board about manufacturing mistakes, rigging mistakes and so on. Do you just not take any of that into account?If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #49 August 20, 2005 Quote I am my rigger. So this adds one more person to the chain of people inspecting a rig. Always a good thing. Maybe I am fairly picky, But I also HATE jumping other peoples pack jobs, and other peoples rigs. -Karen I'm not a rigger, so somewhere it comes down to trust for me. I do like to take everything out and look at it, but being a TM I trust a lot of rigs packed by others, owned by others, etc. Riggers occasionally goof, but by and large I think they are one of the more careful groups of people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #50 August 20, 2005 QuoteThat is like saying would you let the car manufacture assemble your car? No it's not. When my car quits, I step out of it and call a tow truck. Every construction mistake I've seen has been caught by me or someone outside the factory. (Obviously as the item would not have been sent out if it were found.) Point is, if it was missed in the QC process and the same person were packing the rig (as happens) or were supervising the pack job (as happens), it may not have been (and hasn't in some of the cases I've seen.)---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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JohnMitchell 14 #31 August 19, 2005 QuoteWould you rather have your rig packed by a new rigger who is doing it by the numbers and tripple checking all his steps, or would you rather have someone who has been doing it for so many years that he/she becomes complacent? I've been jumping 30 years, a TM for 13 years, and an air traffic controller for 21 year. I'm not even close to being complacent. That's a personality flaw, not a function of experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #32 August 19, 2005 In this case I know the riggers who pack mine QUITE well. They do not pack all that many rigs in a week. They do spend a lot of time making a superior rig and sometimes they get to assemble them .. when requested. I trust them implicitely and.... I have bought Jeff at Velocity a couple bottles now. The dude rocks. Kelly has packed it a few times as well and guess what.. he RAWKS too. Everyone I have met at Velocity is commited to excellence and... the best service I have seen in a long time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ECVZZ 0 #33 August 19, 2005 Holy shit...I wouldn't jump that thing either! I could tell it was a FF handle, but it honestly looks like a relic, instead of a current production item. All the pc's I've seen have the handle attached directly to the apex, just as you described. Any idea of the reasoning behind this design? G. Jones "I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around, the more I think it might not be a bad idea." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kimblair13 0 #34 August 19, 2005 Strong did some work on my rig. Put in hard housing for the cutaway cables and put in some new reserve system and re-packed my reserve. About 2 weeks later I had a reserve ride. I was happy with it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #35 August 19, 2005 I had Aerodyne build my rig and pack it back in June, but then had a very experienced instructor put the first jump on it (I had a sort of Karma thing going on, not that I didn't trust Aerodyne, more a 'Christine' car thing ) I'm also much happier now I've had a reserve repack by my local rigger - nice to know its not newspaper in there Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #36 August 19, 2005 I know Wings come shipped with Cazar PC's... I take it Sunrise add handles on to PC's they buy in? Are you saying the handle should be sewn directly onto the PC (with reinforcing inside) and nothing between handle and the PC? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skip 0 #37 August 19, 2005 QuoteYes, that's a Wings "Freefly" handle. I wouldn't use it nor recommend it. The inside of the pilot chute should have webbing reinforcement on the inside and the handle should be sewn to the Apex lengthwise between the tab and the handle. I would definitely like to hear some more conversation about this preferably involving the manufacturer. neil Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #38 August 19, 2005 QuoteNow if I bought a rig from Square 1/ Paragear/ any of the other "gear stores" I would want it inspected by the one I trust ---- no offense "gear stores" I always encouraged my customers, especially new jumpers, to have a local-to-them rigger assemble and pack their new gear. That way I could be sure that they knew they got what they ordered, and the new jumpers could start to develop a relationship with the person most likely to be maintaining their gear in the future. I have had the manufacturer do some work on my rig that involved disassembling and reassembling and then repacking the canopies. I'd trust them to work on my rig anytime... but if I need the same work done again now I'll have the rigger at the local loft do it simply because it's more convenient. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #39 August 19, 2005 QuoteI know Wings come shipped with Cazar PC's... I take it Sunrise add handles on to PC's they buy in? how do you know they come with Cazer PC's? I called down there not to long ago and got my PC replaced but is not and never has been a Cazer PC. Cazer does not use kevlar tapes between the layers of the bridle nor use kevlar lines for the kill liine like wings does. or at least my cazer PC that is on my wifes rig is wrong then... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #40 August 19, 2005 QuoteWell? Do you feel that confident or would you want an independant rigger to examine ther work done to ensure QC was doing their job? Nope, I wouldn't let a manufacturer do it. I'll assemble and check it myself then turn it over to my rigger to have him do another once-over of it all before it gets packed. Hell, even at 150 jumps when I got my first all-new gear, I still hung up the main & reserve on my own, crawled inside the cells, and checked every crossport & stitch on the canopies and the container after my rigger showed me what to look for. I like having that personal knowledge that everything's okay.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #41 August 19, 2005 I wouldn't let a manufacturer assemble and pack my whole set up. For one thing, I would like to be the one that does the inspection, and also I think it is very important to have another set of eyes check the rig out. Its kinda like when you're writing a paper and you get someone else to proof-read it, often they find more mistakes than you would be able to. Even though we expect the people that build our rigs to be infallible, they're not. I should know, I live with one of those people. Better to have more people involved in the QC. -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superman32 0 #42 August 19, 2005 QuoteEven though we expect the people that build our rigs to be infallible, they're not. I should know, I live with one of those people. Better to have more people involved in the QC. How much QC is involved when your rigger packs it. How many extra eyes get to see his work? I can kinda see that if you get brand new gear and you want to check it over yourself, but there is no guarantee that your rigger is not going to be the one that F's up? Just playing devil's advocate Inveniam Viam aut Faciam I'm back biatches! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallinWoman 1 #43 August 20, 2005 Nope....I jumped demo gear once. And only once. I was demo-ing the container and had the hardest opening of my life. Broke multiple lines...it was there but it was not square. Had to chop. I am just happy that hard opening did not injure me. I will always have a rigger I trust or myself check the gear and repack it before I jump it. ~Anne I'm a Doll!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #44 August 20, 2005 QuoteWould you let a manufacturer assemble and pack your gear?Yes, without hesitation. That is like saying would you let the car manufacture assemble your car? The bottom line is that no one is perfect including the manufactures or your rigger. There is only one person that is and that could walk on water and even he was not a rigger! In general, most manufactures will have an advantage over an independent rigger. I don’t know of any independent riggers that have the resources in-house that some manufactures do. How many riggers are ISO certified, have engineering, material testing, quality assurance, documentation, production and a parts departments? On the other hand, the thing I liked about being an independent rigger was that I was not bound by time or other outside circumstances. I encouraged and provided owners the opportunity to pull the ripcord at repack time so that they would know what it felt like and watch the inspection and packing process to become better educated about their gear, how it works and what is done to it. And as far as the manufacturer missing something during inspection, any rigger could do the same thing so that is a meaningless argument. Having an independent rigger do the assembly does not add an “extra link” rather you have substituted a link since the manufacture will not be inspecting what the rigger did. If you want to add the “extra link” then you would have to either have your local rigger take apart the factory assembly, inspect and reassemble it or visa versa which would be the ultimate check and balance for safety. I have been asked and have seen post here over the years that ask “how could that happen?” The answer is simple, we are human, we don’t know everything and we are not perfect. Look at the auto industry as an example. They spend billions of dollars on engineering, research, development, production, inspection and automation, yet there are still thousands of recalls every year, some serious or even fatal. So in the end, keep asking questions, it is what helps inspire us and hopefully makes us a little better at what we do.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 3 #45 August 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteWould you let a manufacturer assemble and pack your gear?Yes, without hesitation. You say that because you look around you, and you know--up close and personal--the people who would be doing the assembly and packing. You have an acceptable comfort level because it's familiar to you. Would you feel the same way if your rig were coming from up the street, down the street, an hour or so southwest or from California? I know I'd be a lot more comfortable if I knew the identity of the person who actually did the work. As an aside, my gear came from a rigger with a gear business in Arizona, and it arrived fully assembled and partially packed, because he felt I should pack my own main. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #46 August 20, 2005 QuoteYou say that because you look around you, and you know--up close and personal--the people who would be doing the assembly and packing. You have an acceptable comfort level because it's familiar to you. I love it when people speak for me, especially when what they say is wrong! My statement would stand no matter which manufacture I bought from. I like the fact of having the manufacture verify that everything works the way it should and that there are no compatibility issues etc.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #47 August 20, 2005 QuoteHow much QC is involved when your rigger packs it. How many extra eyes get to see his work? I can kinda see that if you get brand new gear and you want to check it over yourself, but there is no guarantee that your rigger is not going to be the one that F's up? Just playing devil's advocate I am my rigger. So this adds one more person to the chain of people inspecting a rig. Always a good thing. Maybe I am fairly picky, But I also HATE jumping other peoples pack jobs, and other peoples rigs. -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 3 #48 August 20, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou say that because you look around you, and you know--up close and personal--the people who would be doing the assembly and packing. You have an acceptable comfort level because it's familiar to you. I love it when people speak for me, especially when what they say is wrong! My statement would stand no matter which manufacture I bought from. I like the fact of having the manufacture verify that everything works the way it should and that there are no compatibility issues etc. And yet there are stories on this board about manufacturing mistakes, rigging mistakes and so on. Do you just not take any of that into account?If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #49 August 20, 2005 Quote I am my rigger. So this adds one more person to the chain of people inspecting a rig. Always a good thing. Maybe I am fairly picky, But I also HATE jumping other peoples pack jobs, and other peoples rigs. -Karen I'm not a rigger, so somewhere it comes down to trust for me. I do like to take everything out and look at it, but being a TM I trust a lot of rigs packed by others, owned by others, etc. Riggers occasionally goof, but by and large I think they are one of the more careful groups of people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #50 August 20, 2005 QuoteThat is like saying would you let the car manufacture assemble your car? No it's not. When my car quits, I step out of it and call a tow truck. Every construction mistake I've seen has been caught by me or someone outside the factory. (Obviously as the item would not have been sent out if it were found.) Point is, if it was missed in the QC process and the same person were packing the rig (as happens) or were supervising the pack job (as happens), it may not have been (and hasn't in some of the cases I've seen.)---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
