lexusone 0 #1 September 5, 2005 I was told this weekend by an instructor. every time you jump you are commiting suicide until you do something to change it think about it makes since ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigorangemd 0 #2 September 5, 2005 In that case the same can be said for crossing the street, swimming under water, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #3 September 5, 2005 I dont agree.... The act of commiting suicide is the final act of a troubled mind and has absolutely nothing to do with the sport of sky diving. I dont leave the plane thinking that I'm going to die. I leave to have fun in the knowledge that I'm going to pull, flare,land,repeat. Anyone thinking otherwise, needs to have a really good talk with themselves . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SwampThing 0 #4 September 5, 2005 Quote ...act of a troubled mind... Anyone thinking otherwise, needs to have a really good talk with themselves Quote I thought talking to yourself was a sign of a troubled mind! The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!" The Optimist says: "Sure it can!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #5 September 5, 2005 QuoteI was told this weekend by an instructor. every time you jump you are commiting suicide until you do something to change it think about it makes since ken I think what the instructor meant to say is, When you step out of an airplane at 12,500 feet you are effectively dead until you do something to change the situation. When you do step out of the airplane there are only 2 things that you must do to survive. One is to deploy a land-able canopy and two is to land that canopy safely. Anything else you may do on a jump is just fluff. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #6 September 5, 2005 QuoteI was told this weekend by an instructor. every time you jump you are commiting suicide until you do something to change it think about it makes since ken Gee, why do some instructors have to be so dramaticMay your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #7 September 5, 2005 QuoteI was told this weekend by an instructor. every time you jump you are commiting suicide until you do something to change it think about it makes since ken ..baloney.. that makes NO sense... what's Up with that instructor....??? Is he trying to scare the student??? trying to impress the student???... either way... that's a dumb thing to say... .....and the absolute wrong image to put into a student's head..... how counterproductive... It's the sort of macho bullshit, often spouted by the scaredy cats of the sport, and usually while riding a barstool trying to impress some whuffos. I can't see ANY self respecting instructor saying THAT... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 185 #8 September 5, 2005 QuoteI was told this weekend by an instructor. every time you jump you are commiting suicide until you do something to change it. For all the indignation this standpoint elicits, it has great merit. All too many jumpers go to great lengths to convince themselves that skydiving is "safe." You will hear nonsense about how the drive to the airport is more dangerous than the jump, and you will see people who have absolute faith that the electronic marvel in their rig will save them from any kind of operator error, but the truth is that you are but seconds from a sure death on each and every skydive - if you do not successfully intervene. If you do not think you are having a near-death experience when you skydive, you are not paying attention. The fact that as few of us die as is now the case says a lot for our equipment and procedures, but does not make it "safe." How can we keep skydiving as safe as possible? Part of the equation is to have a clear understanding of the dangers we face. Engaging in denial may make it easier to get out the door, but it is detrimental to the process of getting to the ground in one piece. Pointing out that skydiving consists of committing suicide and intervening at the last (ta-daah!) moment may be dramatic, but it is one way to get past the illusions that people use in order to participate in the sport. It is blunt, to the point, and, to a large extent, accurate. People who accept this nasty reality are more likely to focus on the life-saving part of the process. They are less likely to be cavalier about reserve size, emergency procedures, preflight planning, and so forth than the people who are complacent. Bridling at the mention of how high are the stakes in this sport smacks of denial. Increasing your odds of staying in the sport for a long time and dying of natural causes comes from considering risks and planning for them. I applaud an instructor who plays it straight with students. If you don't like the stakes, you don't have to play the game. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #9 September 5, 2005 i asked the same question regarding safety to one of the JM's and he said "as dangerous as you want it to be". i think hes kinda saying you either respect the risks and mitigate them or just ignore them and put yourself at greater risk by bring complacent or reckless. its your choice He also said "shit happens in this sport" - hence why im guessing he means you can still do everything right and can have bad luck on the day. ** Not refferring to YOU specifcially!!!** - to anyone in general hope that helps, i only posted that cause the JM has 5,000 jumps told me that, so i knew it would be accurate, cos i would have know clue only being a very new student. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #10 September 5, 2005 I know that I'm mad, I've always been mad, I'been mad for F***king years - (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #11 September 5, 2005 QuoteI know that I'm mad, I've always been mad, I'been mad for F***king years - *** I always figured talking to myself was okay...just not ANSWERING myself...in public at least! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
immanence 0 #12 September 5, 2005 QuoteI dont leave the plane thinking that I'm going to die. I leave to have fun in the knowledge that I'm going to pull, flare, land, repeat I don't want to comment on the wisdom of making the statement the instructor made to a student: I'm in two minds about that. Winsor makes some great points, and so does JimmyTavino. Doubtless it's important to wake the student up to the real risks. But bravado or rhetoric is not the way to go. What is interesting in this statement for me is the relation it suggests between the skydiver and death. It doesn't have to be seen as negative. We have to be careful on this issue. Shropshire, I think you're right: this isn't "suicide" as we normally think of it. That is a tragic human phenomenon which holds a mirror up to the failures of human society. What skydivers do isn't the same thing. Nonetheless, can freedom be defined without making reference to coercive power? Can "life" mean anything unless in the context of death? Freedom and slavery, life and death: none of these mean anything without their antitheses. Every time I exit the plane I know I am entering a "zone of death", as it were. It is always my aim to survive this, get out of it in due course, but I'm well aware — and the point is — that this is no normal sport. It's not like driving fast cars or surfing the big break. It's different. We're really out there. In many sports you die if you do something (drive too fast, surf too big of a break, etc). In skydiving you die if you do nothing. It is the empty space between the plane and the ground that will kill you. But this is what we play with too. It is where we find freedom, and where some, sadly, find the ultimate end to freedom. Does a steady, calm awareness of this spoil what we do? In my view, no. This presence of the ultimate limit contributes, for me, to the beauty of what we do. Sure, sometimes I'm going out focused on the jump and what I'm doing, and the more I jump consecutively the less I feel those nerves about entering the open sky with nothing but a harness, arrangement of lines and fabric on my back. The point I would simply like to make is that skydiving makes me feel alive in ways nothing else does, and I'm sure that this has something to do with the fact that at any moment from when the plane takes off to when I touch down I could die. I don't obsess about this. I don't sit and ponder it all the time. I do think it's there, though. And I do think it is this — this relation between life and death — that makes skydivers different from tennis players or footballers. In large part, it is what defines, behind the scenes, our entire sport. For me, it has nothing to do with seeking a thrill: cheating death. Death is there and will take me when it wants to. But it is a way of coming close to that (to death); conversing, without words, with that, in order that I am more aware, more humane, more thankful, in some ways, in my daily, on-the-ground life. If I personally fail often to live up to that (in other words, if often I'm an asshole to people), it doesn't take anything away from the opportunity for growth that skydiving provides, along with the fun. That growth, ultimately, follows from the enhanced proximity to death that is a simple fact of our unique sport. This proximity also creates remarkable solidarities among us, as I'm sure many members of this forum could attest, giving birth to wonderful friendships. Blue skies, ian "where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
somebodynew 0 #13 September 5, 2005 Your response held a lot of food for thought for me - this summer did my first tandem - kind of a nebulous wish that was encouraged to fruition by the disbelief of my husband that I would ever have the nerve to do it. I was blown away by my reaction to the whole event and have been doing alot of introspection since.I used to cry, now I hold my head up high.. and you see me, somebody new... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pkasdorf 0 #14 September 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteI was told this weekend by an instructor. every time you jump you are commiting suicide until you do something to change it think about it makes since ken I think what the instructor meant to say is, When you step out of an airplane at 12,500 feet you are effectively dead until you do something to change the situation. When you do step out of the airplane there are only 2 things that you must do to survive. One is to deploy a land-able canopy and two is to land that canopy safely. Anything else you may do on a jump is just fluff. Sparky THAT'S IT! PERFECT! HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #15 September 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteI was told this weekend by an instructor. every time you jump you are commiting suicide until you do something to change it think about it makes since ken I think what the instructor meant to say is, When you step out of an airplane at 12,500 feet you are effectively dead until you do something to change the situation. When you do step out of the airplane there are only 2 things that you must do to survive. One is to deploy a land-able canopy and two is to land that canopy safely. Anything else you may do on a jump is just fluff. Sparky THAT'S IT! PERFECT! *** I've heard Sparky say that many times before...I was just waiting for his 'standard' reply! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #16 September 5, 2005 IMHO there are better ways to convey the inherent dangers of skydiving than through that dramatic statement. I can see that methodology offending a lot of people - most would not like to be marked as "suicidal." From my experience the majority of skydivers enjoy the short trip through the blue sky because they choose to live, not because they choose to gamble with death. Lastly, I will say that it is VERY important that we respectfully and professionally convey the neture of the risks one assumes when making a skydive, whether they are a one-time tandem student or a soon to be career skydiver.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #17 September 5, 2005 Thanks Ian - much more Eloquent response than mine. My main point was to try to distance our sport (or any other for that matter) from this suicide wrap. We've had far too many real instances over the past couple of years and it does our sport no good at all. To use these terms to new starters shows really poor taste IMHO. Thanks (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everon 0 #18 September 5, 2005 Being a very inexperienced student my instructor (whom I have the utmost respect for - over 5,200 jumps) put it this way: You are stepping out because you want to experience something that you find worth experiencing, and you accept the small risk because it justifies the reward. You have the time of your life, but the most important thing you must remember in any skydive is that there is something you have to do to save that life - that's your TOP priority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #19 September 5, 2005 QuoteYou are stepping out because you want to experience something that you find worth experiencing, and you accept the small risk because it justifies the reward. You have the time of your life, but the most important thing you must remember in any skydive is that there is something you have to do to save that life - that's your TOP priority. Very very VERY (very) well put. I hope he doesn't mind me stealing that one . . . Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Suavel 0 #20 September 6, 2005 QuoteYou will hear nonsense about how the drive to the airport is more dangerous than the jump I have said before that my four hour round trip to and from the dropzone is more dangerous than actually skydiving. I suppose it's really a matter of perception, it could be said you have the same amount of control in both situations, in the car or in the rig. I dunno, the topic statement has merit, but again it's a matter of perception. I'm still a student so I haven't experianced near the amount of things that I will experiance in the future. Although I believe I have experianced a couple of the worse(bag-lock, reserve ride). Jumping out of a plane with nylon to catch you is suicidal to some, but to us it's sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #21 September 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteI was told this weekend by an instructor. every time you jump you are commiting suicide until you do something to change it think about it makes since ken I think what the instructor meant to say is, When you step out of an airplane at 12,500 feet you are effectively dead until you do something to change the situation. When you do step out of the airplane there are only 2 things that you must do to survive. One is to deploy a land-able canopy and two is to land that canopy safely. Anything else you may do on a jump is just fluff. Sparky THAT'S IT! PERFECT! SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrickyDicky 0 #22 September 6, 2005 The game of chicken is a contest between two participants, to see who is the first to flinch. Skydiving is just a game of chicken beteen the jumper and the earth. The earth is still yet to flinch. UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #23 September 6, 2005 QuoteGee, why do some instructors have to be so dramatic Because some students (if not most of them) enter the sport without a clear perception of the risks involved and have trouble to stay focused at the ultimate goal (which is to land in one piece in a state that enables you to repeat the skydive should you desire to do so...) The sheer volume of the information you get when you enter a first jump course makes this 'focussing' hard, since you are engaging in a whole new activity. Face it, a lot of the stuff we teach is NOT about this 'ultimate goal' - like when you have a group in your first jump course, take them into the hangar and tell them not to step on the lines of the parachute, how to obtain a rig and what to do when manifesting. There's a complete new 'lingo' to learn, and also 'how to blend in with other skydivers'... A lot of people have a hard time to 'wrap up' the course into keywords like 'arch' (on exit) 'pull' (when it is time to deploy a parachute) and 'wing level + unobstructed lane' when it is about time to land... What people often do in an environment they don't understand is resort to 'magic' - and make no mistake about this: conquering dangers (denial if you will) through 'magic' is as old as humanity... Years and years ago I overheard a static line student who was so impressed with her 'larger-than-life' instructor she was convinced that if 'her parachute didn't open', our hero would jump after her and come to her aid... My bet is she never told her hero what magical powers she attributed to him and without questioning the actual course HE gave it is safe to say she had not understood what he could do and what he COULD NOT do... Yet, with the described mindset, she already made 7 static-line jumps... Sooo, nothing wrong with a reality-check when you start a course though the choice of words would not be mine; I tell them they are 'effectivly dead' when they drop from altitudes higher than 10 meters without an open parachute. Seems to do the trick. "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #24 September 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou will hear nonsense about how the drive to the airport is more dangerous than the jump I have said before that my four hour round trip to and from the dropzone is more dangerous than actually skydiving. . Why, are you stoned or drunk when you make the trip?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #25 September 6, 2005 QuoteI have said before that my four hour round trip to and from the dropzone is more dangerous than actually skydiving. That's quite simply not true. From my personal point of view, I've known two skydivers who died in traffic accidents. I've known many more who died skydiving. Both of those two died while riding something on two wheels. One of them in Bangkok. Your average trip to the DZ is no where near as dangerous as throwing yourself at the planet. Repeatedly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
