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ianmdrennan

Serious question on ignored advice.

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Since you are requesting a serious answer I will divulge some information about my personality, possibly a flaw.

I am the type of person you are speaking of. I have selective hearing. There are times I will only take heed of the advice I feel suits me. I have a tendancy to privately set goals for myself based on what I see and think. Once I have determined that I want to and am capable of accomplishing a given task, regardless of the odds or opposition, I will do whatever it takes to make it happen. This means seeking out advice, reading materials, videos etc. on ways to achieve this goal whatever it may be.

For me, once I set my mind to something there is no turning back unless I have failed.

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Thanks for the honest answer. We share similar personality traits (the desire to succeed), but I think that's common in a lot of skydivers.

My next question to your personality type would then be: If your goal is simply to succeed (spectacularly?) would you view it as a failure if there was a different (possibly better) way to proceed in accomplishing your goals or must they be accomplished your way, and your way only? Is there a way you could be convinced there was a better way. If so, how? If not, why? Do you discount advice because you don't trust it, or because you prefer figuring it out on your own?

Feel free to PM me your response if you don't want to have your views public.

Once again, this isn't here to be a flame fest, rather a learning experience about how different people go about things and their reasonings for doing so.

Blue ones,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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I've been doing a lot of thinking lately about the amount of good advice that is ignored in skydiving, mostly related to canopy flight but that's my passion so my thoughts naturally drift there.

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Just like there are many bad sources of advice to push you forward aggressivley into something you are not ready for there are very conservative jumpers out there who are giving conservative ( or ultra conservative ) advice which may not work for the situation.

Just because something worked for you at X-numbers does not mean it will work for everyone. And just because something still isn't working for someone with thousands of jumps doesn't mean that someone with a few hundred can't do it safely and accurately.

Its really hard for some hardheaded low experience jumper to realise that to do what they want to do they need what they don't currently posses, experience.

Its equally hard to have much time in this sport and many jumps and watch someone with a fraction of the jumps and experience see someone doing something that took us much longer to even try let alone get good or safe at without saying something about it.

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I myself am a different case altogether, but maybe I have an answer for you....

I downsized fairly quickly. I was jumping a 120 by 150 or so jumps. I consistently asked advice because I didn't want to become a statistic. I felt safe under each canopy I downsized to. No one looked at me and said that I was gonna kill myself under the canopy. And I haven't.

I did hook into the ground and a very experienced jumper/gear store owner told me that prior to my accident, he had considered suggesting that I get a velocity.

So I never went against advice, but I did downsize too quickly. The reason for it was because that I aspired to be like those I admired. In every thing that has standards, the lower levels are always looking up. Unfortunately, it can kill you in this sport.

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Its equally hard to have much time in this sport and many jumps and watch someone with a fraction of the jumps and experience see someone doing something that took us much longer to even try let alone get good or safe at without saying something about it.



I find it one of the most satisfying things when I help someone who becomes way more proficient at something than I am(not hard to do :)
I do think though, that sometimes newer jumpers think more experienced jumpers are trying to hold them back...but it's shortsightedness, because often the bigger picture calls for more rewards in a shorter period of time. There are ways to speed up some progressions, but they don't always offer the most IMMEDIATE satisfaction (hence the reluctance to pay attention to them), but in the long run the jumper turns out waay better, sooner, than if they'd rushed off and tried to figure it out on their own.

Blue ones,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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It's really good to seek as much help as possible and then make up your own mind, ...... dont you think?



The problem is that a person with very little expereince may not know how to filter and make a good choice.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I do think though, that sometimes newer jumpers think more experienced jumpers are trying to hold them back...but it's shortsightedness, because often the bigger picture calls for more rewards in a shorter period of time. There are ways to speed up some progressions, but they don't always offer the most IMMEDIATE satisfaction (hence the reluctance to pay attention to them), but in the long run the jumper turns out waay better, sooner, than if they'd rushed off and tried to figure it out on their own. ***

This alludes to what I consider to be a big part of the problem. Look around. We live in the "on demand" world. Just like any yuppie with a credit card can get himself a Harley, and then think that he's a biker, so, too, can any few hundred jump wonder with some cake get himself a brand new, too small velo, and think that he's a swooper. You can't tell them any different, and you can't point out statistics or loads of institutional knowledge that suggest that they are pushing it too hard because they don't wanna hear it. They're too used to being able to "point and click" on what they want.

I don't preach to them any more, I just get out of the way.

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3) The answer they got was not defended. "I have 3000 jumps over 10 years" is not proof that an answer is good. Anyone answering with that as the primary justification should be prepared to be ignored. This is a life risking sport - a jumper isn't going to just accept a reply that doesn't feel right.



It could have something to do with a guy with 10 years and 3,000 jumps knows more than a guy with 9 jumps...That guy may give plenty of reasons. But the guy with 9 jumps might not want to listen due to ego.

And no amount of good advice will get through the "I know me better than you."

And while You might know you better than him..He knows skydiving and the progression paths of students better than you do.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Advice: Opinion about what could or should be done about a situation or problem.

Generally speaking, i don't see anything wrong with not doing things according to somebody else's opinion. Anyway, people have different opinions; some are good and relevant to my situation, others really suck.

When it comes to taking care of my personal situation, i'm usually more capable than a random self-promoted advice giver. Sometimes advices are much better at flattering the advice giver's ego than at addressing my specific problems.

Anyway, i value useful knowledge more than general opinions. Advices, particularly unsolicited, are usually unwelcome, as long as they lack of relevance to my specific situation, proper justifications, and evidences of truth.
--
Come
Skydive Asia

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Hi Ian,
good questions! I'm probably as guilty as some of this as any, so I'll try rationalise it ;) (This may just be a stream of random thoughts, so I apologise in advance)...
a couple of reasons I guess... none of them very good:

Ego is a big one - after several thousand jumps, people know who you are and respect you; I guess we all crave that in a hierarchical sport such as ours. One way of getting noticed (not necessarily the same as getting respect) is to be the person pushing it the most either from being the fastest or the smallest or pulling the lowest... not cool.

The second part of ego is another biggie - we've covered external recognition (the old addage - better to be noticed for being a wanker than not to be noticed at all), but this one is more internal. Remember when you first learnt to drive? Certainly most of the people I know say now that they used to drive too fast, and either an accident or a near miss has slowed them down - we used to think we were invincible and that we were better than everyone else - I honestly believe this translates into canopy downsizing.... a sense of self-invulnerability that leads us to moving too quickly... there are legal and insurance restrictions in place to stop a 17 year old new driver buying a supercar... not so in canopy sizing - we like to keep our independance within the sport and self regulate, but that only works if people have the discipline to accept preventative measures. Maybe legislation is the answer - I don't know.

So, (perceptionally) looking good and feeling good has a big part in choosing a canopy too small - the third part, that I think has been covered, is probably self validation. Ask enough people and eventually you'll get the answer you want to hear, and then you can say: "well Suchandsuch said I could...."

Like I said - no good reasons for ignoring good advice, just the way humans work...

There are probably loads more subtle reasons, but I need to get back to work ;):D...

Edit: Just read Romericus' answer: "The reason for it was because that I aspired to be like those I admired..." another very true reason....

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One factor could be conflicting advice. I'm still new to the sport and I can recall loads of times when I've been given conflicting advice on an issue. Who do you trust? I was lucky in that I had one instructor all through AFF and most of my consolidation jumps. It can be a little confusing for some students if they have a lot of instructors all giving different advice. I guess consistency could be the key.

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I think another major factor may be what people view as 'experienced'.
I've only recently got my A-license and to me everyone with over, say, 200 jumps seems really experienced. I (and I assume this goes for most people with very low experience in any field) wouldn't see much of a difference (except on paper) between the advice given by one person with 2 years and 200 jumps, and another with 30 years and 5,000 jumps*. I think it depends very heavily on your vantage-point.
Hence it may not be a combination of bad advice by someone who you percieve to be experienced but actually isn't, coupled with the fact that deep deep down you really want to be told that "yes, after twenty jumps on that 220 fury you CAN downsise to a velocity sixty-nine".
Mine arrives in two weeks. :)

* - this may be a little bit of an exaggeration.



Durham University Freefall Club

Grounds For Divorce website (band I'm in)

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BUT... his instructor might know his progression and abilities better than the guy with 10 years and 3000 jumps. Who should he listen to then?



Clearly his instructor..

BUT thats not what he said:

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3) The answer they got was not defended. "I have 3000 jumps over 10 years" is not proof that an answer is good. Anyone answering with that as the primary justification should be prepared to be ignored. This is a life risking sport - a jumper isn't going to just accept a reply that doesn't feel right.

.

No where in that does he talk about getting two answers....
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I never listened to my instructors because they were all stinky old farts who were so scared of my blinding talent that they were always BEGGING me to slow down, claiming I was at risk of injury. It was simply a matter of time before I made complete fools of them and showed just how stupid and conservative their advice was.

Unfortunately, an injury resulting from a low turn put me out of the sport for nearly a year due to a femur broken in 9 places.

They all acted SO concerned, although it was clear to me that they were releived. They claimed this relief was because I had not killed myself - but I knew it was because their senior position would remain unchallenged. The injury created a major setback to my learning curve, and those stinky old instructors still seem to have the edge on experience I so nearly had within my grasp.;)

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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I was adding a third person to the equation, because mosttimes, people aren't JUST getting advice here.



I think you added a third person just to refute me. since there was no mention of it in his, or my post.

You don't like my teaching style and slam it at every opportunity.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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"I have 3000 jumps over 10 years"



"And nothing has ever gone wrong doing it this way"

Has been many an instructor's comment with regard to:

1) The 45-degree rule; and,
2) Letting freefliers go out first, with no additional separation time between the last freefly group and the first belly group.

It is not an acceptable answer . . . I need an explanation. And if it's a valid answer, there will be one.

Kelly

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there are also some instructors out there, usually the less progressive ones, that hold peaple back from advancing. i think it is definatly good to get advice from more than one instructor. for both reasons.

you never know where you could be if you listened to that instuctor that held you back.

then again you never know where you could be if you had listen to that instructor who said go for it

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"And nothing has ever gone wrong doing it this way"

Has been many an instructor's comment with regard to:

1) The 45-degree rule; and,
2) Letting freefliers go out first, with no additional separation time between the last freefly group and the first belly group.

It is not an acceptable answer . . . I need an explanation. And if it's a valid answer, there will be one.

Kelly



Have you ever heard me not give a reason?

The problem is many times its not the reason that the person wants to hear. So they dispute it. But most times the only reason they have to dispute it is that I don't know them...And they are better than most.

Like I said..Have you ever heard me not give a reason? I think you and I talked long about spotting remember?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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YOU always give a reason, but the specific example cited was one where the person does not. And I was not referring to you, just addressing the fact that "I have 3000 jumps over 10 years" is not an explanation.

Quite frankly, I would listen to you over several of my instructors (not regarding downsizing or whatnot, b/c you don't know my flying, but the 45-degree rule and such), because you EXPLAIN your reasoning, whereas many of them don't. And they don't because, there is no explanation other than, "I guess I've gotten lucky all these years, b/c the 45-degree rule is bullshit." Or something like that.

Kelly

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no... you're just paranoid and see slams where there are none



Really?

I can point out many times where you jump on me for my teaching style...This time is no different.

And just because I am paraniod...Does not mean you are not out to get me.;)
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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