ATP vs AFF

[azureriders 0]

ok, one of my wife's girlfriends was dieing to try skydiving and wanted someone to go with her, so I do a little research on the saftey aspects and say why not. Hence the first Tandem. We both liked it and decided to pursue it further but her husband freaked over the idea of a Solo and insisted she continue through Tandem progression. I, having no reason to think one course better than the other, joined the same course as her so we could take the same training etc. (its a 2 1/2 hour drive to the DZ so it was convenient to be in the same course). So we both pass the next three tandems with flying colors and on to the solos. Level 5 ATP, your first solo, is similiar to AFF level 3 with only one instructor. We both passed but niether was able to hold a heading well enough for release. Level 6, the instructor moves to a front dock position and then after a nod off from the student releases, the student to perform two 360's. Both of us at release spun like a top. I went into a flat spin which the intstructor attacked and knocked me out of allowing me to pull with some stablity ,as I was already begining to spin again, at about 10,000. She had a similiar ride. My instructor tells me during debriefing that he hates the ATP course because it never prepare students for solos. The Tandem master does more corrections than even he realizes and the student is left 'uneducated'. He recommended me doing an AFF level 3 with two instructors until my heading improves and then continuing my course. Ofcourse I agreed to this course of action, which I have not had a chance to do yet, but I would like some input and other opinions on which course is best. and do you think the ATP course guidline by the USPA should be rewritten, as my instructor does.

[packerboy 3]

Regardless of which progression you take, you are going to find yourself on a skydive by yourself with little to no experience. Neither is going to teach you any better how to avoid a flat spin untill you get in the air and do a skydive by yourself and figure out what body position you need to adapt to.

You have someone strapped to your back making corrections or you have an instructor on each side of you hanging on to you making corrections... what's the difference.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[azureriders 0]

Good Point.

I think my instructors point is that 4 tandem rides does not qualify you to jump solo with only one instructor. He wants the ATP course to be rewritten with the first solo or two to require two instructors. In my case he is most definately correct, but I don't know about the average across the board. I wouldn't want the USPA to rewrite a course just because of my lack of skill, but the instructors at my DZ asure me that most Tandem students progress more slowly than AFF students. Beats me?????

[MarkM 0]

The thing with the training methods is that they all have their pros and cons. AFF might have had you more prepared for a solo release in fewer jumps, but your ATP gave you several canopy rides with an instructor sitting right behind you showing you how to fly a canopy.

Edit: and btw, progressing more slowly isn't always a bad thing.

[azureriders 0]

I have no problem with having to progress slowly, I made it very clear to my instructor, which gave me the option of repeating the one instructo jump or paying for two like he suggested, that I was up for what ever he thought, as long as it might take.

Also good point on the canopy control. My first solo involved a malfunctioning radio (as the DZO put it "for some reason it won't work in the O - F -
F position") I made my down wind aproach, base turn and final turn on my own before I found my radio guy waving red and yellow like wild, but I was right on track and landed within 5 ft of him.

[azureriders 0]

Incase you wonder why it makes such a difference to compare the two courses at this point, I have two or three friends that have made a tandem fun jump and are interested in continueing but are looking to me to recommend them to which course they should take. Ofcourse I am reffering such questions to the DZ staff as they are the qualified party, not me, but I would like the input of others as well.

Thanks for the post and any more to come

[Ragnarok 0]

I had to repeat level D1 FIVE times until I got a good box position felt out. I still struggle with it, but I have only 13 skydives. Some progress faster than others. Take the time to feel it out and get into the 'groove'. After it clicks, it is cake from there. I think it is awesome that you are continuing to skydive. Keep it up and you will get it.

_________________________________________
Twin Otter N203-Echo,29 July 2006
Cessna P206 N2537X, 19 April 2008
Blue Skies Forever

[azureriders 0]

No way I am stoping now. It is great. Flat spin and all, haha. Box is not the problem though, it is my leg awareness. Seems to be a common problem with ATP. My TM could see my hands and corrected my box position. Now I have very littel trouble with my hands compared to my feet, which the TM has no way of seeing and can only guess at where they are. My wife just finished her lever 3 ATP which she also passed. I was on the next load sitting next to her TM with him braging and wooing about how great she did, completed two 360's on the nose (even if she was using the videographer for a heading marker). Then we go home and watch the video and her feet are all over the place. Its almost like the TM looks down and sees the box dip right and knows that it looks good so he helps the turn to the right, and then the same to the left. He never realizes that her feet may be the reason that he has to help. Then again, I am no expert on advanced flying and maybe he was not helping at all, just keeping stable and her box turn worked under his stablity. But I do know that her feet were everywhere. No way I am letting her get out solo unless she has two instructors with her.

[OSOK 0]

I'm doing the IAF course, which is 3 tandems then the next 6 levels are with one instructor. With IAF you get more jumps for the money, and I think jumping three times on a tandem before going solo prepares you better.

Anyways, I too had problems with my legs. On my last skydive (IAF Level 5), which I had to do 3 times before passing, the instructor told me that basically my forward motion position should be my freefall posture, talking about my legs (I wasn't extending my legs completely out on my fwd motion). I wasn't pushing them out and feeling that positive pressure, which was making me wobble all over the place. Make sure you really push those legs out to the point where your instructor stops giving you the legs out signal... and keep them there! I also couldnt arch right, but it was because of my legs .

[woodpecker 0]

I dont think it matters what training you take up, problems happen in the air with new jumpers. Thats some of the interesting times when learning to skydive. My friend just passed his AFF and had to redo his turns 5 times (5 separate jumps) before he passed. He had the same problems you described with spinning out of control and the instructor bashed him twice on one jump. He finally got it though and moved on. As they told him....just relax. When in a jam, just relax. Good luck

SONIC WOODY #146

There is a fine line between cockiness and confidence -- which side of the line are you on?

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Level 5 ATP, your first solo, is similiar to AFF level 3 with only one instructor. We both passed but niether was able to hold a heading well enough for release. Level 6, the instructor moves to a front dock position and then after a nod off from the student releases, the student to perform two 360's. Both of us at release spun like a top.

If you didn't get a release on the AFF-3, what the heck is the point of advancing directly to what was AFF-5 on my 7 jump program? If you weren't able to hold a single heading, asking you to instead do 360s is asking a lot. That seems like the failure in the system here, not in the tandem progression concept.

(for the record, I had to repeat that AFF-3 because while the release went ok, I went butt high at pull time and one AFF-I moved in to stablize me)

A lot of instructors here like the tandem progression. Wait till morning and you'll probably hear from them.

[DeepThought 0]

I did AFF, so I cant coment on anyother system.

However I would say that having the jumps on video made a massive difference.
After every jump I had a video debrief.

My instructor could point out my uneven legs, and the fact I kept droping my knees.

What you think you are doing, is somtimes not what you are actuly doing.

So in my opinion (which is not worth a lot) go for a system that has a video of every jump.

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You only have one life, make the most of it.

[dayle 0]

I did AFF right from jump #1, I knew I wanted to skydive and I didn't like the idea of a Tandem at the time.

Now however we use Tandem progression at our DZ. One thing you mentioned which we do differently is that after your three tandems, (first one fun, second and third working/learning) your next jump is basically an AFF level III release dive with two instructors.

At our DZ, I don't think ANY instructor would take a student up for the first time on their own without having a 2nd instructor to help.

Someone else mentioned video. Nothing assists instruction more than video.

It's really good for some perspective too. Later on when you have a couple of hundred jumps, you can look back at your first few jumps and laugh at yourself and see how much you've improved.

I does make for great memories.

Dayle

[azureriders 0]

Thanks for all the great view points. To answer a couple of your questions; the uspa guidlines do not require a release on level 5 to pass to level 6 (turns). That is one point that my instructor, nor I, agree with, but my DZ practices the "by the book" technique and therefore passed me on to level 6. Once again the uspa says that a ATP student on his first jump only requires one instructor, and again a point that my instructor disagrees with. In my opionon, at least one of these points should be changed. You should either have to have two instructors or (my choice) for sure be able to hold a heading before continueing to turns. W

[Andy9o8 0]

Some people balk at the idea of being strapped on to a tandem instructor on their first jump. While it might (emphasis on might) take you a couple extra jumps to learn self-stability in freefall with ATP than with AFF, the tandem progression does have 2 particular benefits:

1. It helps you get your head past the sensory overload of your first jump, which is overwhelming to some, with little or no pressure to perform. Even with static line or IAD, where time from exit to canopy inflation is only about 4 seconds, once the student is gone, he's responsible for his own EP's and his own canopy landing. Obviously not the case if you're a tandem student.

2. What better way to get great canopy coaching on your first couple jumps than to have your own personal canopy coach strapped onto your back?

[azureriders 0]

Ha, it seems that I am having some of the same problems as many others, but one that I missed out on is this sensory overload I keep hearing so much about. I have been in constuction for over 15 years and I have fallen before, (several times) My first jump was just the first time for me to fall with a parachute. To be honest, it was the least sensory overloading fall that I have ever had. Sliding down the roof of a two story house with a 10:12 roof pitch (40 degrees) watching the eve get closer and closer, then you gone, off the edge, nothing between you and ground but air, back to earth and no chute, nor time to deploy it if you did, now thats sensory overload.

[RossDagley 0]

Do you have a tunnel close to you? 15 minutes coaching in one will transform your body position and control.

[azureriders 0]

nowhere even remotely close, I have thought of making the drive anyway, but it would take some planning. Vacation type trip and after Katrina my work load is way to much to even consider such a thing.