The WFFC Thief.

[Michele 1]

What a horrible thread. Both because theft occurred (and seemingly quite a bit of it) and also because of the presence of a mental illness.

***I AM NOT CONDONING THE BEHAVIOR OF THEFT WHATSOEVER***
[QUOTE]
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Mental illness is a strange thing, a lot of people take their meds for a while, then they think that since things are going fine they don't have to take them anymore. Then things like this happen.
________________________________________________________

From what I understand, that is the story of many people's life. Just like some ADD folks don't really want to take meds because it robs them of "the edge," and folks with schizophrenia don't like some of the drugs because it makes them stupid and fat.

And, of course, so many people tell them that if they were just strong enough they could do it without drugs...
As someone who has heard for years "just change your behavior" I'm here to let you know it isn't that simple. If it were that simple - if it were simply a matter of will power, if you will - then I'd never suffer another bout of depression, nor think perhaps the option of suicide is a good one.

Meds suck. Taking a pill (or three) daily for the rest of our lives is so shitty. The cycle of meds/off meds is a well documented fact of life for those who have a chronic brain illness...it's just the way it goes.

How many of you have ever gotten an anti-biotic, and, while dosing, thought "man, I feel better...I'll stop taking this medication. I don't need it any more..." and then stopped taking it? Often, when one does stop taking the full course of antibiotics, they will become more sick, with resistant strains of the original infection.

Now, imagine having to take a pill for the rest of your life, even when you "feel" better...it often happens that people stop taking their psychotropic medication because they now think they're all right, along with the other issues Wendy mentioned.

I've done it. I took my meds for a very long time, stopped them one day (impulsive behavior at it's best...), and slid into one of the very worst depressions I've ever experienced. It took a confrontation with my brother (and best friend) to bring me back to a point where I realized meds were needed...and then with him coming with me, I went to the Dr and got back onto medication.

I wrote and posted an essay about the medication and depression...In My Dreams.

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I truely hope no one close to you people suffers from any mental illness, that is not well tollerated by others. It would be a shame to have you walk a mile in this guys (and his friends) shoes

Thank you, Squeak.

Society condemns brain illnesses/mental illnesses. It's not at all understood, nor are explanations accepted and/or tolerated. Andrea Yeats killed her 5 children while in a psychotic break developed from Post Partum Depression. Yet, she was found guilty...not by reason of insanity, but just guilty.

There are myriad stories of those who are mentally ill, or have a brain disease, that stop treatment - or never get it in the first place - and become ostracized by those who love them, let alone those who know them.

Impluse resistence is a problem for OCD and/or kleptomania sufferers. If you read the description of the illness, you would see that there is tension/action/release, which is the classic cycle of OCD.

I'm rambling...

I guess all I really want to say is that if he was in treatment and stopped treatment, this behavior is nothing unexpected. Horrible, to be sure, and absolutely a violation of others' well being and material possessions...but it's also an illness.

Show a bit of understanding, if you can. And realize that the comments you all have made reinforces a person's self-condemnation, and, in someone who's not "doing well" that can be the absolute worst thing they can hear.

To Dex's friends: run an intervention. Get him some treatment, some help. Make sure those around him know that he has an illness, and enlist them in getting him some help, as well. Sometimes, as a true friend, you'll have to take some heat. It's all right - do it anyway. The heat will pass, I promise (I know this from both sides of the coin...).

To those who had stuff stolen: I am sorry you were violated. Please, though, hate the sin, not the sinner. Understand a little bit more, forgive a little bit more, and try to help the situation rather than simply condemn it.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Samurai136 0]

I don't find the group response suprising or upseting. I find it reassuring.
The guy was a klepto off his meds walking around an environment where trust is a very important commodity.

I certainly appreciate the message of tolerance for people and It's good to hear someone who believes in it.

In the US, I think it's safe to say, the skydiving community doesn't tolerate pedophiles, rapists or other sex offenders walking around the DZ. Klepto's fall into the same category. We'll send them to Australia when we run them out of town.


Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[mjosparky 3]

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I like being able to leave my shit out and not worry about it.


***

Sorry Nate...

But the last few years have taught me, you can do one or the other...not both.

There was a time when skydiving was a small, close knit group of people. There were not that many who were part of the community and everyone knew or at least had heard of everyone else. That is no longer true. Skydiving has become a recreation instead of a sport. It is now a reflection of society as a whole. You have liars, cheats, thieves and rapists.

You must now care for your personnel property in the same manner at the DZ that you would anywhere else.

Sad, but that’s what happens when you go main stream.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Superman32 0]

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Erik Peterson's Computer and Electronics Store!
If we dont have what you are looking for we will get it just ask!

Damn you post it before me
I'm also thinking that this illness thing may be BS.
What I have an illness that makes me steal, sell the goods and then buy cool stuff with the profits.

His profile also states AFF instructor and coach - kinda scary

Inveniam Viam aut Faciam
I'm back biatches!

[Squeak 17]

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We'll send them to Australia when we run them out of town.

Ken

No problem with that

Yet another reason Oz is called the Lucky Country,you're not here

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Eiley 0]

Well said Squeak - my thoughts exactly.

nothing to see here

[airtwardo 6]

His profile also states AFF instructor and coach - kinda scary

***

The 'Sporting Goods' section of his site has Tandems for sale too..

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davadikian 0]

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You must now care for your personnel property in the same manner at the DZ that you would anywhere else.

Sad, but that’s what happens when you go main stream.

That and safer equipment. I wouldnt say sad.

-Doug

[JUDYJ 0]

Hang on....

We aren't his Mother, Father, Sister or Brother... we are the people who are the victims... If my child were in this situation, I would certainly stand with him/her and help them accept why they are where they are...

When is it justified to say that mental illness allows the thief to also be the victim???

If we "allow" his actions to be justified...that he doesn't have to withstand the same punishment as a 'normal' human being, then aren't we (as a society) saying that mental illness allows one the 'positive reinforcement' that should have been negative???

No, mental illness, is not the excuse that buys anyone sympathy or justification. Instead, mental illness, illicits empathy...not excuses.

You are right...his friends can stand by him when he must serve his time..and they can help him seek extensive help...it doesnt' allow him to SKIP GO AND COLLECT $200.

IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!

[Michele 1]

Judy, please point out where I said he should go free? Please tell me where I condone his behavior, and think it's acceptable? Please let me know where...'cause I clearly remember stating IN CAPS something totally opposite, and also saying I was sorry that folks were his victims.

In regards to being his "keeper," no, there is no obligation to do so whatsoever. However, I've been on both sides of the coin - needing help, and helping those in need. I hope you never have to be in either one of those positions.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[JUDYJ 0]

Michelle,

First, I am not attacking you or your views.

Second, I know that mental illness/ treatment is a very important issue to you. I respect that.

Third, you wrote

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Show a bit of understanding, if you can. And realize that the comments you all have made reinforces a person's self-condemnation, and, in someone who's not "doing well" that can be the absolute worst thing they can hear.

Maybe I took this out of context.

Fourth,

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Please, though, hate the sin, not the sinner. Understand a little bit more, forgive a little bit more, and try to help the situation rather than simply condemn it.

HOw exactly is one to do this???

For those who are expressing their thoughts..about someone who stole and who was caught..who did so with intent (despite cause) how are THEY supposed to not condemn it?

Just food for thought...

I meant no personal harm~

Judy

IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!

[Michele 1]

Hi, Judy. Thanks for clarifying. I appreciate it.

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Third, you wrote
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Show a bit of understanding, if you can. And realize that the comments you all have made reinforces a person's self-condemnation, and, in someone who's not "doing well" that can be the absolute worst thing they can hear.
__________________________________

Maybe I took this out of context.

And maybe I could've stated it better. What I'm trying to get at is that sometimes, we don't realize what our words can do to a person - both good and bad. I personally know someone who, having read of suicides reported on line, felt no sadness that the person in question was dead, but rather sat there and tried to figure out what the dead person had done right so he could succeed in his own suicide. I also personally know of someone who was on the edge, reached out because of something I had written here a year or so ago, and is now on the road to recovery.

The words we say carry weight, and do not always have a pleasant outcome. That's all I'm trying to get at; a little bit less harsh, and a little more understanding, is all I'm looking for.

And you know me well enough to know that yes, I feel strongly about mental illness and emotional health...but I'd hope you also know me well enough to know that when I say "this does not condone theft at all" (or whatever I said...) that I mean that, as well.

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HOw exactly is one to do this???

For those who are expressing their thoughts..about someone who stole and who was caught..who did so with intent (despite cause) how are THEY supposed to not condemn it?

Thoughts are expressed...revenge and wishing karma on people is also expressed. Maybe it's naive of me to wish that revenge and bad karma wishing wouln't happen, but I think that someone can express anger and outrage and not "go there."

And yes, just to prevent people from saying "well, easy for you to say..." I've been the victim of physically violent crime, theft, and various other crimes. It's not fun...and learning to forgive - while at the same time not forgetting, or wishing they'd be set free - is a balance one strikes within themselves and can be difficult to maintain.

To find that balance, then, is what I'm trying to encourage. Yes, of course, honor your feelings of violation and hurt and know that for a moment you were victimized...but also realize that there is someone (in this case) who is ill, and needs help. One does not negate the other; I am fully capable of hoping someone gets caught and punished appropriately...and in this case specifically, glad that he was caught, and hopefully the stolen items were returned to their rightful owners, and that he will be prosecuted as the law allows. I also hope that he is able to get the medical attention he needs, as well as the therapy he needs, and can recover that way as well as serve time or make restitution or whatever his sentence is.

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I meant no personal harm~

Of course you didn't, and I didn't really take it that way.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[airtwardo 6]

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You must now care for your personnel property in the same manner at the DZ that you would anywhere else.

Sad, but that’s what happens when you go main stream.

That and safer equipment. I wouldnt say sad.

-Doug

***

I don't think you understood the context of the post.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 2,380]

>In the US, I think it's safe to say, the skydiving community doesn't
> tolerate pedophiles, rapists or other sex offenders walking around
>the DZ. Klepto's fall into the same category.

Those are some values that are very far from mine. Rape and violence are the same as losing stuff? You can replace stuff.

[Scoop 0]

Because I'm still on student status Im very trusting of people at my DZ, I'm very reliant on peoples integrity, after all, I'm effectively trusting my life with them.

To me, if I couldnt even leave kit lying around for couple of minutes there is no trust and Id rather turn my back on the sport.

Theft is theft, regardless of how 'ill' someone is.
Hope the authorities sort him out and shut down his sites if they are fencing the products of his habit.

[davadikian 0]

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I don't think you understood the context of the post.

I understood the context, I was simply pointing out (without going into a diatribe, but here it goes) that as our sport evolves and becomes more mainstream we get both the good things and the bad things. This guy (regardless of the reason he did it) isnt the first skydiver to steal from a skydiver and he wont be the last. I dont think there are a lot of skydivers who would do this but they are out there. If in exchange for me and my wife both jumping advanced, safe gear, on safer airplanes, I have to be more aware that there may be elements on the DZ that are less than honorable then Ill accept that trade-off. I wasnt trying to disagree, just trying to make a brief point.

On a regular basis in skydiving and in life we hear "how good things used to be". You used to be able to leave you front door unlocked, but not anymore, but in the big picture we now have computers, the net, Sat TV, turbine aircraft, and the list goes on. I dont think the proper word would be sad, IMHO.

-Doug
edited to add, so Im clear

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[CDRINF 1]

Getting back to the original topic: Does anyone have any info on what this guy's legal status is? I note from his website that he posted the WFFC pics on 31 Aug, so he's not locked up. Does he have a court date? I was also curious if the serial #'s were ever run on his gear to see if the gear was stolen.

To add my slant, I was there when this happened. I arrived Friday afternoon and a friend immediately told me "Watch your stuff. People have had jump tickets stolen. We think that guy is going through people's gear and we are keeping an eye on him." The guy he indicated was the person in question. It was a guy I had jumped with before at previous conventions and had judged a bit strange, but harmless. That evening while a friend and I were re-packing, We saw him starting to go through a large pile of gear that had collected in the center of load organizer tent #1. My friend asked him what he was doing, and Erik said he was looking for his checkbook, then left. The next day he was spotted doing the same thing by convention security and apprehended when he was seen to take something. Report we got back was that he had large amounts of jump tickets, cash, and credit cards in his possession. The jump tickets had in many cases been altered to obscure the wrist band numbers or name written on them. He also had a book of counter checks so there was a suspicion that he had been passing bad checks to the vendors. He was taken to manifest where one of the LO's took the pictures posted here and told him "Hope you enjoyed your skydiving career, you won't jump again anywhere, these are going out to the world." He reportedly broke down and curled up on the floor, crying like a baby as he realized his world was falling apart.

Stealing is stealing, what ever the reason or excuse. You can see by this thread the kind of distrust and strong feelings it causes. Some have argued that this guy is "part of the family" and we ought to help him. I hard lesson I learned long ago is that you cannot continue to support people, even family and friends, when you know they are wrong.

I just hope the legal system takes action in this case. Anyone know the status of the case?

CDR

[Newbie 0]

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Any of you who call this person "friend" who knew of his "condition" ought to be ashamed of yourselves for not keeping this guy in check.

Chuck Blue
D-12501

Was just about to literally post that almost word for word, but thought i would read through everything else here before i did in case it had already been mentioned. Glad i did, as i wholeheartedly concur.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[wmw999 2,116]

Ever try to keep an alcoholic in check? One of the really far-down-the-trail ones? Without owning them, you can't. And, well, you don't want to own one -- it helps neither person.

It might well be that getting busted will be a good thing for him in the long run, simply because it will ensure that he keeps on his meds for a significant period of time as part of his parole/probation/sentence/whatever. And maybe having the experience of being busted will help him to decide that the consequences aren't worth the rush of going off the meds.

It's that whole "reaching bottom" thing. You hope the "bottom" of someone you care for isn't real deep. But if you protect them from it, you're taking tools away from them.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RogerRamjet 0]

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*The person repeatedly yields to the impulse to steal objects that are needed neither for personal use nor for their monetary worth.

If he's really this sick, I'd hate to be in the air with him when he decides I have a very nice cutaway handle or reserve handle....

On a more serious note, if someone is really a friend of this guy and also a skydiver, why would they not warn the community at large if you know he's going to a large meet? Now, everyone in the skydiving community will know, but it seems a much harder method than a warning might have been.

-----------------------
Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[Newbie 0]

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Ever try to keep an alcoholic in check? One of the really far-down-the-trail ones? Without owning them, you can't. And, well, you don't want to own one -- it helps neither person.

It might well be that getting busted will be a good thing for him in the long run, simply because it will ensure that he keeps on his meds for a significant period of time as part of his parole/probation/sentence/whatever. And maybe having the experience of being busted will help him to decide that the consequences aren't worth the rush of going off the meds.

It's that whole "reaching bottom" thing. You hope the "bottom" of someone you care for isn't real deep. But if you protect them from it, you're taking tools away from them.

Wendy W.

I guess it's whether you think they need to go off and reach the bottom of whatever is going on with them in order they then pick themselves up, or, given their known behaviour, you think you have a responsibility to those who such a person could come into contact with, and, knowing his behaviour, attempt to protect them, given the insight you have.

I'm glad for one i have never been put in a position that would involve such a dilemma - but given the sort of person i am, i doubt i would stand by and let my friend do "what he had to" in order to reach rock bottom in the hopes it helps him out in the long run.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Vertifly 0]

Reading through this one too, I can only relate to those who can see through Eric's (assuming Eric is his name at this point) actions and care about him. Although, I would be just as leary as any other jumper in here about leaving my gear if he were around, given his reputation.

Sympathy is one trait that seperates human beings from animals. And it is a trait that is useful for our co-existence. Skydiving is a small enough community that we could easily drive him out of (and into another - where he will continue to do this elsewhere).

If Eric has a psychological problem with keeping his hands off of other people's property, then he needs to be in psycho-therapy...drugs rarely solve things for long term, only for a few hours. He seems to also have socio-pathilogical behavior; I was not at Rantoul, so this is hear-say of course. Again, he needs to get someone to listen to him about his conflicts inside. Do you think that alienating Eric, calling him names (who said "fuckin weirdo" - that is just your anger that needs helping), or declaring your own isolation from him is going to make him feel any better? Frankly, if I were angry about something and you alienated me, then you would be my next target. I know because I have been angry for extended periods of my life too.

We've all been sick or have come-up-short in many ways. Have a heart. At least have a bigger heart than those who criticize rather than sympathize. Isn't it enough that someone has posted on the forum and stated that he is a good friend? I don't know about you, but that is enough for me. Some sees good in him and bunches of you are showing compassion - and that makes me feel good; not sure where all of this defensiveness is coming from really.

Of all the people in the world, only a SMALL percentage of them have decided to make jumping out of planes a hobbie. For me, that is enough to call this man kin. How do you care for your kin? Do you alienate them when they do you wrong or do talk to them? Truly, I've done both, and believe me when I say that the latter always has a better outcome.

Eric's ailment appears to be socio-pathological and kleptomania in nature. These are a few things we've identified and are a few things that need to be fixed. This will unlikely make him a danger in the sky.

The kleptomania you may not be able to help with - only secure your belongings and hope he works it out. The second, you could at least try to help. Why don't you walk up to him and talk to him? Introduce yourself and ask him questions. Get him to talk. Perhaps he'll open up a little...and that is an excellent start. Just watch his hands and be aware that he may be very shy.

If you aren't giving to those who need help, and you have the extra resources, you may as well be taking. And that is another form of kleptomania in my eyes.

[wmw999 2,116]

You want to protect other people from the behavior (I have a feeling that if any of his friends had known he was going to WFFC they'd've tried to dissuade him, but that they didn't know just what was going to happen). But if you protect someone from the consequences of their behavior, then you're making that behavior last longer.

No, you don't let someone drunk skydive. But you do let them go into debt, lose their credit, lose their driver's license, and sit in jail. You remind them why this is happening, and hope they will make the connection.

It's not easy, and the one time I really had to do it I wasn't able to (fortunately, I wasn't close enough to the person for that long either).

It's easier to learn the lesson that spending more than you make when your insurmountable debt is $5000 than when you're older and it's $30,000. It's better to reach bottom early, when you still have some pride left.

And it's probably not a good place to go in the first place, and it really sucks to find someone that you love and care for there -- everyone wants their life to be "normal."

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Newbie 0]

True, good points. Either way, its a tough call, and as i said, i'm glad that i haven't been in that position, it must be very difficult.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[arlo 0]

nicely said, vertifly.

i'm guessing alot of folks that criticize and judge are the same ones calling all the homeless worthless pieces of shit, drunk bums too. hell yeah! kick those fuckers while they're down! impressive! i'm glad that your lives are so pristine. bravo! maybe some of you should take a long look at yourselves before throwing stones, eh? any one of you guys that ever stole a pack of gum or a cigarette from your dad's pack....haha. same boat. throw your stones.


and for the dude implying that lara isn't a good friend? BTFU. unless you know her, you have NO idea what you're talking about. lara is a good soul and is compassionate and gives a shit...unlike alot of folks i'm starting to see.