Hard Openings Suck

[mattjw916 2]

Plenty of people with thousands of jumps agree with me. Ignore them, not me, at your own risk.

The same logic applies to other canopies. The Nova, some old Raven reserves (esp when overloaded), unmodded Crossfire 1s (some of them). If you hear enough comments about them, that should raise a red flag. Blind faith in any of these companies based on reputation or word of mouth is link number one in the chain that leads to a really bad day.

Some lessons don't take 10,000 jumps to learn.

FWIW I'd have no problem jumping a modded Crossfire 1 or a modern R-Max reserve (made by the people who brought you the Raven). Even my Safire has an oversized slider and non-factory control line settings (some of the original Precision-built ones had a bad rep too). So obviously paranoia is not a factor. It has to do with making an informed decision.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[aneblett 0]

How long did Ford build the Pinto?

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[HydroGuy 0]

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>well, what type of main typically has slower openings?

The Pilot and the Spectre are both known for their slower openings. The Spectre in particular has _very_ slow openings.

I had my first slammer yesterday...on a Pilot 168. I "thought" I had experienced a hard opening once before. I was wrong. I saw stars, my neck hurt, my back hurt and my shoulder hurt. I landed uneventfully, but had to sit down on my butt for several minutes to gather myself before picking up my canopy.

The head packer at Perris was the one who packed the canopy...she's always given me great pack jobs before, so I find it hard to fault her.

I feel like I was in good position @ deployment (had been in stable boxman and dearching for 1000 feet, but who knows.

Guess sometimes shit just happens.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[nate_1979 9]

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Guess sometimes shit just happens.

Yup... Last week I just got slammed hard by my Safire 2... This is a canopy that I know alot of people who jump them and they were all shocked that I had anything but a soft opening on it... I also had thought that I'd had a hard opening until this one, and it was caught on video (still need to copy it from the guy) ... It was hard enough that the chest strap (which was loosened from the opening) slapped me on the bottom of my face, my sholders and neck were sore for awhile... Like you said, shit happens. On the video you can see it come out of the d-bag and just whip open, I usually have to wait for end cells to fully open up, this time the center started collapsing a bit after the opening shock.

Ouch.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[mdrejhon 8]

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How long did Ford build the Pinto?

The Ford Pinto Parachute? Oh, heavens!

[Elisha 1]

I wonder how many unmodded Sabre1s are out there? I'm guessing that mine is not. My slider is probably right for my canopy.

I will continue to respect the experience told me first hand by those such as Doug (formerly of Hollister and Santa Rosa) and Garreth at Byron who I know have several thousand Sabre1 jumps between them.

The hard openings are no secret, but I will treat the paranoia that I'm hearing from those such as matt as those previous paranoid rantings I heard about my short riser cable....inconsequential compared to the first hand advice from my master rigger.

[HeatherB 0]

God, I love my Pilot.

I'd have its babies if I could.

(I'm not exactly sure what that means)

But seriously...I jumped a Sabre 150 for my first few hundred jumps. It never slammed me, but it opened fast. After trying out other canopies, I realized that canopies can open softly! And you won't be sore after a weekend of jumping! Awesome!

My random thoughts:

1. Any canopy can slam you if you fuck up the packing process.

2. Shit can happen, even with what seems like a reliable canopy and a normal packjob.

3. Certain canopies have a history of hard openings, off-heading openings, snively openings, soft openings, etc. Jumper reviews and first-hand accounts can be helpful.

4. Demo, demo, demo! If possible, jump the exact canopy you're buying before you hand over your money. This is where buying used can be really nice.

But I'm only a 800-jump wonder, I'm no guru.

[nate_1979 9]

And I still love my Safire 2 too, but I dont know about that baby thing I'm sure that I must have done something to cause it, ... I probably fall under your random thought #1

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[mattjw916 2]

I'm sure the management at NASA thought the engineers at Thiokol were just "ranting" and "paranoid", that is until the shuttle Challenger blew up.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Elisha 1]

Dude, go on with your bad self.

[dragon2 0]

One guy at our DZ ended up with a 7 cell Safire2 after opening! Ouch ouch ouch

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[phoenixlpr 0]

As you see 9 cells are better.

[crotalus01 0]

my Sabre 190 used to slam me on just about every jump regardless of how it was packed. finally, it opened so hard it knocked me out for a few seconds, and when i came to i had linetwists out the ass and still spinning up. so, i measured the slider and called PD - the recommended size slider was 26" x 31"....the slider on my rig was 18" x 26".
new (correctly sized) slider, only one brisk opening since.
and i love the way my Sabre flies and flares. but i am going to go to a Nitron after i have recouped my investment on the Sabre.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[rsmn17 0]

I'm just a student and I use student gear (sabre 170). Should I be worried?? Why would they put students on these?

[mattjw916 2]

Chances are that if they are using it for student gear, it is one (of the many) that are okay or have been modified since the gear gets used frequently. The packers of the student gear also are probably very familiar with it and know how to pack it properly. You could always ask them if you have more concerns.

I'd move on to more modern gear once you start shopping for your own rig though. Just my opinion.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[RMURRAY 1]

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Well If you can't tell by the title I had one hell of a hard opening sunday. After the canopy opened (saber 190, falling belly to earth about 120 or less around 3,000) my whole back cracked.

Needless to say it hurt like hell, got X-rays nothing broken (thank god) but the doc put me on percocet.

Anybody have any tips to help slow the canopy down when I pack. I did not pack this one but normally I tuck the nose and make sure the slider is good and quartered.

I have heard that sabers have a tendence to smack you every once in a while.

Hoping to hear a little advice on packing here.

Thanks Darin

get MEL to make a dome slider for it. call him and he will explain. they work great - I have seen this first hand. Here is his number...

FAA Master Rigger/Owner
Skyworks Parachute Service
2222 Buffalo-West Springs Hwy.
Buffalo, SC 29321
864-429-8428

rm

[TomSpoon 2]

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" Can you even name 1 person who died on a Sabre opening? ". "Prove me wrong and come up with a name, or at least an incident report."

AGE:68
Sex: Male
Number of jumps:15,000
Time in Sport: 40-plus years
Cause of death; Multiple internal injuries from a hard deployment and hard landing.
System:Para-Flite Swift
Main: Performance Designs Sabre 170

• Quote

[grue 1]

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Thank you for sharing.

I'm still not impressed. It wasn't in production for 12 years for nothing.

I've never jumped a Sabre, and probably never will, but the length of time something is in production means nothing. Look at the automotive world. Hell, look at computer operating systems.

cavete terrae.

[TomSpoon 2]

The comments about the Sabre are not "paranoid rantings" The fact is the sabre is a dated design. That is why they are so cheap on the used market. Their is no more a reason to jump one than their is to jump a rig with capewells or a blast handle. Rigs like that are cheap too. Over the years their were many jumpers who paid with their lives as skydiving equipment evolved. Their is now a generation of jumpers who have paid the price of accelerated wear and tear on our bodies as we learned about opening characteriistics of ZP canopies. Quality saves money. Buy a proper canopy. You are not invincible. Here is a post from Tinkerbelle:



"Tinkerbelle

Jumps
License D 272
In sport 18 years

Feb 19, 2004, 8:03 PM

Post #44 of 45 (110 views)

Registered: Feb 14, 2004
Posts: 481


Re: [TomSpoon] Sabres have opening problems.It's no secret [In reply to] Quote | Reply
My Sabre 135 broke my neck- gave me 2 badly herneated discs 13 years ago or whenever they came out. I continued jumping with it, and today I spend my money going to neck specialists, Physical Therapy, neck injections, etc... instead of jumping! MadFrown
They say if I continue to jump, now on pain pills, percoset, I will end up in a wheelchair paralyzed!
I wish I had bought a different canopy long ago!
You know those hard openings that hurt, well the hurt is permanent, even though you may not know it when you're in your 20s- it will catch up to you in your 30s! "

[phoenixlpr 0]

I think it is not so serious. Most jumpers around me started or jumping with PD Sabre. Most of them are not complaining about hard openings.

[Elisha 1]

In the context of how the Sabre is being portrayed, they indeed sound like paranoid rantings.

First of all, it has already been pointed out that:

1) Sabre's have always had a higher liklihood of hard openings vs other canopies.

2) and ANY canopy for that matter can slam you if you don't pack it right or for just some random opening w/o any apparent reason.

Now, for an example. There have been several fatalities over the years at Perris Valley - I count 3 in 2004/05 at least by just searching on 'perris' in the fatality db on dz.com. (Sorry to pick on Perris, but they are big. You could probably substitute Lodi, Eloy, or some other large DZ for that matter.) Now, because there have been fatalities, should I just assume Perris is a dangerous place? Should I automatically point the finger at their S&TA(s)? Should I assume there are dangerous jumpers there? NO! That would be silly. Even if you assume the same fatality RATE for Perris as any other DZ regardless of size, there is a much higher liklihood of seeing A fatality at Perris vs some other cessna tandem factory due to the Law of Large Numbers.

Now, if you look at this compared to canopies, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Sabre one of the most popular canopies purchased/used during the time of its production? Due to the number of Sabres that have ever been made/flown, if you just apply the rate of a canopy having a hard opening for even a non-Sabre, you will still get many instances of hard openings. This doesn't even account for the dated design of the canopy.

Furthermore, what we are initially talking about is probably different for different people wrt purchasing a rig. Are you just off student status and looking for a first (probably used) rig or an experienced jumper looking for new/relatively new equipment? Have you been jumping at a large or a small DZ? What is the advice, experience and recommendations from those from your DZ? Who do you trust to sell you equipment and why? What is available on the market (whatever the market means to you)? Should I now believe that my former DZO was ignorant or in fact malicious? Sorry, but I don't.

Therefore, mattjw916's first response indeed sound like paranoid rantings. I will say that his response on Oct 6, 2005, 5:52 PM was much more reasoned.

[billvon 2,399]

>The hard openings are no secret, but I will treat the paranoia that
>I'm hearing from those such as matt as those previous paranoid
>rantings I heard about my short riser cable....inconsequential
> compared to the first hand advice from my master rigger.

I recall doing a coach jump with a new jumper at Rantoul one year. Before the jump I gave him a pretty thorough gear check, and all looked OK other than being old. After he landed, he turned around - and one of his risers fell off. I checked and one cutaway cable was just plain too short, but you could only see it when the riser was extended away from the harness.

"Dude, you gotta get this fixed! This may be barely holding on in the air."

"Oh, no problem, Joe told me it was fine. He's a rigger; he runs things over there." (He then pointed to a nearby tent.)

So riggers make mistakes too, and sometimes it can pay to disregard their advice and fix the problem. It takes some experience to know when to do that, though, because they are _usually_ pretty knowledgeable.

[mattjw916 2]

Muddy the waters all you like... it won't help your, or anyone else's, canopy open any softer. Stilettos have been around for a long time and are flown by top RW teams like Air Speed for thousands of jumps per year. How many times have they been injured by their Stilettos on opening? With as many training jumps as they make, if they opened hard with any frequency, do you think they would jump them? They still make the Stiletto after almost a decade and don't make the Sabre what does that say?

People getting hurt under a Sabre isn't some statistical anomaly. Cheap gear is cheap for a reason. Everybody thinks they have the best/safest canopy/rig/AAD etc. In reality, a lot of those people are wrong. Some learn, some not in time though.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Elisha 1]

Quote

>The hard openings are no secret, but I will treat the paranoia that
>I'm hearing from those such as matt as those previous paranoid
>rantings I heard about my short riser cable....inconsequential
> compared to the first hand advice from my master rigger.

I recall doing a coach jump with a new jumper at Rantoul one year. Before the jump I gave him a pretty thorough gear check, and all looked OK other than being old. After he landed, he turned around - and one of his risers fell off. I checked and one cutaway cable was just plain too short, but you could only see it when the riser was extended away from the harness.

"Dude, you gotta get this fixed! This may be barely holding on in the air."

"Oh, no problem, Joe told me it was fine. He's a rigger; he runs things over there." (He then pointed to a nearby tent.)

So riggers make mistakes too, and sometimes it can pay to disregard their advice and fix the problem. It takes some experience to know when to do that, though, because they are _usually_ pretty knowledgeable.

billvon,
Please refer this to the thread about short cutaway cables a month or so ago. A masterrigger has gone over this in the meantime and I will be having him modify it to get more length at my repack at the end of the month.

[Elisha 1]

No, I am not "Muddying the waters" at all, but providing a proper context and perspective to the discussion. Go back and read your first few posts on the topic (of Sabre1's) and then the post on Oct 6 which I referenced. Think about it for a little while and try to be objective wrt your own posts.

Basically, you are maligning PD and accusing them of perpetuating a defective, inferior product for a long period of time. Even if you disagree with this, I still see how this isn't any different than saying "How much is your life worth?" to get someone to purchase a Mirage (to pick a more pricey container) over a Dolphin if maybe a Dolphin suits someone's needs, if maybe we are only talking short term and this is understood by all.