Questionable Tandem Video

[matthewcline 0]

I direct this comment to no particular person just the thread topic.


I agree the TM is totally responsible. I too have 4 Video Dudes I work with and one thing we all do is debrief each other, either after the jump or at the end of the day, but we do it!

For me, since I am an Instrcutor and S&TA for a military team and school it is second nature, but I also look at it as my responsibility as an Instructor who has 3 lives to watch out for on every Tandem with video. Additionally for every one who joins me on a tandem, I have their life too.

Lets all learn from the video. The video is a perfect example of people who do not care for others lives and do not take full responsibility for their actions. But lets also let the RWS (as it was a SIGMA) and USPA deal with the punishment.

If you aren't comfortable with them do not jump with them.

If that is still not enough for us, run for a USPA position and work to fix it.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[davelepka 4]

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As for jumping with videographers, thats where trust comes in

This is where I get a little confused. Isn't there a point at which the camer flyer is responsible for his own actions?

It would seem to me that a TM who would allow a camera flyer to jump with him based on personal experience with the flyer in question has provided for the safety of the student as much as he is capable of. The actions of the camera flyer are out of the TM's control once they leave the AC, and responsibility for any incidents casued by the camera flyer are the responsibility of that camera flyer.

Just as the TM is required to do his job, in protecting the safety of the student, so is the camera flyer once they all leave the AC. This is when an un-stoppable chain of events begins, and the camera flyer has a responsibility to not interfere with that chain.

As it applies to this case, provided that the TM ...

-Personally knew, and had previously jumped with the jumpers in quesiton

- The jumpers all had instrucitonal ratings

- Had no knowledge of their intentions to do what they did

.... doesn't the responsibility fall to these 'professional' skydivers to act as such? If not, at what point does responsibility ever switch? How about a primary AFF JM who has a secondary AFF JM endnager/injure a student. Is the primary JM responsible for the actions of the secondary?

I'm not sure what the case is here. I have trouble believing that a TM would agree to in advance what happened on that jump (with multiple video angles no-less). I just think at some point a jumper becomes responsible for their own actions, and getting a rating sure seems like good milestone to conincide with one being expected to act as a professional (at least in the air with paying customers).

Edit:

They need to change the name of this thread, because there is no quesiton that that's some fucked up video right there.

[JOEMT98 0]

pm me too

[LawnDart21 0]

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The actions of the camera flyer are out of the TM's control once they leave the AC, and responsibility for any incidents casued by the camera flyer are the responsibility of that camera flyer.

You make an excellent point. I wish it were a clear black and white issue, but let me put it in this perspective, here's ane xample:

As jumpers, we are clearly forbidden to jump through clouds by the FAA FARs, right? So on a heavily clouded day with a few sucker holes available, a pilot takes a full load of jumpers up. The pilot trusts them, they are all his friends, and they all hold instructoral ratings and he says to them, I'll fly you GPS over the spot, if you see a hole, I trust you to go, and if your socked in, I trust you to stay in the plane.

The pilot did his job, right?

So, they get a green light and they are socked in, solid layer, but then Joe Schmo jumps anyways, and just as he's opeing up through a cloud, Mr. FAA man looks up and sees it.

The pilot ends up getting busted for it and his license pulled for violating a FAR.

So I ask you, who does the FAA consider responsible? Obviously the jumper f'ed up by jumping, but he was allowed to do so by the latitude (trust) given to him by the pilot.

Trust is a fine line, but responisbility still rests with the pilot in command, of a plane or simply a tandem passenger.

Does that make sense?

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Pilot in Command
Parachutist in Command

Same responsiblity, people's lives.

Derek

[billvon 2,394]

>the TM was and is solely responsible for the events that took place on that skydive.

I disagree. I have let people who claimed to be competent, qualified etc accompany me on tandems. In a few cases, they misled me and did some dangerous shit. (Nothing like grabbing the drouge; more like getting above me, docking on me instead of the student, not clearing when I waved off etc.) They are responsible for their conduct.

>it seems in skydiving there (for better or for worse) must always be
> someone or something held accountable for the issue. With that
> said, I prefer to look at responsibility rather than blame.

I agree. The person who performs the skydive is responsible for his actions on it. If he puts a tandem in danger, he is responsible for that.

>fault or no fault 100% of the responsibility for safety of a student
> lies with the TANDEM INSTRUCTOR . . . .

Nonsense. How can a tandem instructor prevent a stall on jump run, or an engine fire? How can he protect his student against a cameraman who has a wing blow out and who falls on top of them? How can he guarantee he can always keep a student from getting hurt if he lands in a dust devil that just kicked off? Answer is - he can't. Shit happens.

It is a tandem master's responsibility to do the best job he can to land his student safely. However, even if a TM does everything right, the student can be injured or killed. Students understand that; heck, it's right there on the waiver in big letters.

[davelepka 4]

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I have let people who claimed to be competent, qualified etc accompany me on tandems. In a few cases, they misled me and did some dangerous shit.

They are responsible for their conduct

In that case, I might hold you (the TM) partially responsible. Without having first-hand knowledge (as-in previously jumped with them) of their skills, or a rating to fall back on, you are taking a chance by allowing them on your jump.

Provided that you have first hand experience with them or they hold a freefall rating of some sort, then you have done all you can in making a safe addition to your skydive. From the exit forward, it is up to the jumper to either perform to the standard you had previously witnessed, or to the standard expected of a rating holder.

You can't fully blame a guy with 100 jumps for over amping a tandem dock, and hurting a student. He does hold part of the responsibility, but so does the TM for allowing an under qualified jumper to accompany him.

It really comes down to the nature of the relationship between the TM and the lurkers, and the qualifications of those lurkers when it comes to assigning or splitting up the blame.

Again, in this case it is hard to tell, but why on earth would a new-ish TM agree to what happened?

[Elisha 1]

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I knew that. I was saying "You" figuratively. Your post had the TMs expalanation on it. Sorry, wasnt implying you were him.

[grammar police]That is why it is proper to say "one" instead of "you" in hypothetical or figurative situations.[/grammar police]

[LawnDart21 0]

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I disagree

Of course you do...

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I have let people who claimed to be competent, qualified etc accompany me on tandems.

And YOU put your students life at risk by doing so, YOUR responsibility. No one, not the camera guy with the wing suit blow out, or the pilot who forgets to run up the engines before take off, no one is responsible for your student but you. You have apoint Bill, but at the end of the day the tandem instructor is responsible for his students life, no one else. Why do I get my tandem student jump ready every time we have a hop n pop getting out low? If the hop in pop jumper puts his PC over the tail and the plane starts to go down, I am getting my student, my responsibility, out the door. Do I blame the hop n popper, or the pilot for not being able to fly without an elevator. No. I accept full responsibility from the moment I gear them up, to the moment I gear them down.

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Nonsense. How can a tandem instructor prevent a stall on jump run, or an engine fire? How can he protect his student against a cameraman who has a wing blow out and who falls on top of them?

The TM (I) can't protect a student from those occurances, but it doesnt mean I get to pawn off responsibility to the pilot or the guy that made the wing suit...........

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Samurai136 0]

I think you're taking "resposibility" to an absurd level. Your claim that "at the end of the day the tandem instructor is responsible for his students life, no one else." is totally unreasonable. Doctors (surgeons) who believe they are responsibible for their patient's life are said to have a "god complex" and in the medical community are considered a liablity

By your reasoning, If there is a complete powerplant failure in the aircraft below 1000' AGL and the plane goes in, the Instructor is 100% responsible.

The instructor's responsibility is to make the best decisions possible, in the interests of safety for the student, given the present facts available. Skydiving is dangerous. Known and unknown risks are involved in every jump. Resposibility is shared by all parties involved in a skydive, including the student.

If you take your claim seriously, as a responsible instructor, you would refuse to take anyone on a tandem skydive. Considering that you are dependent on, at minimum, a pilot and an A&P having done their job to allow you to do yours.


As far as the topic at hand is concerned, I think the two bozos making intensional contact with the drogue should have their ratings pulled by the USPA and equipment manufacturer. I don't care how skilled they are, that's just an unnecessary risk that can get really bad, fast.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[kelpdiver 2]

he's saying he's responsible for those things that he can control. Certainly that includes who flies with him on the tandem jump, and hooking up the student if the door is open for a HnP.

Can't prevent a plane crash. No idea how much control you guys have over DZ's camera fliers.

What actions would you blame the student for?

[bigern13 0]

I apologize for piggy backing on this topic a little late but I am trying to learn as much as possible early to prevent making the same mistakes others have made. Does anyone have the video or link to it I can watch?

Thanks

"I love 'lamp'."
-SKYMAMA

[funks 1]

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Does anyone have the video or link to it I can watch?

if you read the whole thread you'll find a link

[MB38 0]

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Does anyone have the video or link to it I can watch?

if you read the whole thread you'll find a link

http://www.sharkle.com/?a=video&id=2578 Not downloadable, unfortunately. I'd love it if somebody who has the original file could post that for downloadage. If somebody sends it to me, I'll host it.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[sitflyer35 0]

let me know where to send it

[MB38 0]

Here it is.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[tustinr 1]

I happened to come across the movie on skydivingmovies.com last night and was horrified by what I saw. I watched it 5 times in a row and still can't get over the downright stupidity of those "instructors ".

I have done a fair share of tandem videography and I would NEVER dream of attempting a stunt like that !

As for responsibility I agree the TI has to accept responsibility for what happened on that jump. He allowed them onto that jump in the first place.

Videos like this are educational in the sense that it shows the skydiving world out there what sort of shit is happening. Fortunately it didn't turn into a tragedy - could so easily have done so.

I really don't understand how these guys minds work - putting the safety of both a TI and student at risk for what - 10 seconds of video footage ! Its beyond me, totally. I find it hard to comprehend.

Rich

---------------------------------------
Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught.

[LawnDart21 0]

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I think you're taking "resposibility" to an absurd level.

Okay, I'll give you that, in the event of an engine failure on take off, I'm not responsible for my student..... I'm not responsible for making sure that everyone on the plane is wearing their seatbelts before take off. I'm not responsible for making sure that everyones helmet s(potential projectiles) are worn or secured before take off. And I'm not responsible for making sure my student is in a crash position if the plane does go down below 1000ft. I'm not responsible for doing anything that would give my student the best chances for survival in an emergency situation. That's the pilots job, right? I'm not responsible for doing alot of the things that affect me and my students safety. I do those things anyways..........becuase my student is my responsbility.

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said to have a "god complex" and in the medical community are considered a liablity

"god complex"....."sky god"...........hmm, not too far apart, I must be a sky god..........

You can point-counter point me all day on this. At the end of the day, this "liability" knows that after 1000 tandems, my way works for me, and my students are the better, and safer for it.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[popsjumper 2]

LawnDart, I salute your desire to help prevent accidents.
It's those that care that do those things.

I, for one, will never tire of hearing "Helmets, seatbelts, chestraps, legstraps" yelled out while on the taxiway.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nicknitro71 0]

If you really do what you preach we'd see less accidents and far less episodes like this one.

I pretty much agree with you.

A Tandem is not another skydive. Somebody put their own life in your hands, think about it.

Shit can still happen don't get me wrong but I know my attitude is much different when I'm with a T student, much different.

Before take off I glance at the oil pressure and temp gages, the trim and the flaps, it takes three seconds. If I see something is off I have no problems telling the pilot. I don't give a shit if he is in commend, if the pressure is off, the trim is off, or no flaps, I'll tell her/him ESPECIALLY if somebody else's life is in my hands.

As for incompetent cameraman...Have you made a jump with the guy to see his/her skills? If not then it's the TI's fault if something goes sour in FF due to lack of skills on the cameraman part.

Seatbelts and helmets...if I'm with a student I make 100% sure everyone is wearing seatbelts and all the helmets/cameras are strapped, again it takes three seconds.

Maybe people forget that a tandem is not just another skydive.

As for the video I really do not think the TI did everything in his power to avoid what happened; He did overlook few things...

Memento Audere Semper

903

[MB38 0]

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Here it is.

Video has been removed at request of owner and his lawyer. I think the point has been made pretty clear... this video isn't for public viewing anymore.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[DJL 232]

Yeah, just like the Paris Hilton video.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Safteyjest 0]

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Here it is.

Video has been removed at request of owner and his lawyer. I think the point has been made pretty clear... this video isn't for public viewing anymore.

I can't believe the energy that has gone into blocking the video. Where is all that energy when it comes to saftey.

[Fast 0]

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Here it is.

Video has been removed at request of owner and his lawyer. I think the point has been made pretty clear... this video isn't for public viewing anymore.

I can't believe the energy that has gone into blocking the video. Where is all that energy when it comes to saftey.

Who is to say that much energy doesn't go into saftey? I know for a fact that for me when I am working with a student doing a coach jump I put way more effort into saftey than it takes for a couple of emails to be sent.

Thats the thing about threads like this. Its a lot of talk but no one really knows what happend and who got in trouble for what. Because none of us are the people in the video, aside from the comments that I quoted from skydivingmovies.com of the TM in the video.

I downloaded and watched the video and thats the kind of crap that makes skydiving look bad. Sure it happened and some people deserved to get punished for it, and if RWS saw it, which it seems they have, I am sure they did get punished. That doesn't mean video like that should be floating around on the net for whoever to see or use in whatever manner they want. It also doesn't give sitflyer a right to try and make some DZ look bad.

Most of the people at the dropzone in the video don't even read this site. There is no saftey to be gained by them people from posts on here. All this thread is to them is bad publicity because they aren't reading it and the mostly good comments about why that was stupid and how it shouldn't of happened at all.

The intention of this thread from the start was public "name calling" and it seems to me, at least, that is mostly the purpose that it has served.

Beyond that, if some new tandem master is reading this thread and even having not seen the video learns to be cautious of who he or she takes with them on a skydive, then A+ for effort.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The intention of this thread from the start was public "name calling" and it seems to me, at least, that is mostly the purpose that it has served.

Show me the name calling.

Derek