Questionable Tandem Video

[bob.dino 0]

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Anyway... I still haven't seen the name of the DZ even mentioned (except in the original description that came with the video, which I removed before approving it).

It hasn't been mentioned, but given that everyone who appears to know the name is based in or around CO, it's a fair bet that it's another case of Colorado jumpers washing their dirty linen in public.

Hell, I could probably guess the DZ, and I live in Australia.

[mattjw916 2]

there are no Caravans in CO...

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I can't figure you out. You quit jumping cause of the bullshit involved. Yet you still do everything in skydiving except the fun part. And you still whine about the things you didn't like that caused you to quit! Why don't you freaking just keep jumping if you're gonna stay involved anyway??

Simple. I would like to skydive, I have never stopped wanting to skydive. Maybe if things change, I will be able to jump again. Maybe I will make a little difference (not likely) to that end. I guess it is because I still want to jump and I am trying to change the things that caused me to stop.

As for the current topic, It doesn't give a good impression of the DZ when the Instructors are doing stuff like this. It may have been an isolated incident, whatever. I don't think the DZ is being or should be hung out to dry. I do think some Instructors excercised some very poor judgement and shouldn't be Instructors anymore.

Derek

[flyangel2 2]

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It hasn't been mentioned, but given that everyone who appears to know the name is based in or around CO,

What!? I don't know the name of the DZ and I live in Colorado. That is a very hurtful statement, what do you have to back it up with?

Cora:

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Mary, I agree that safety needs to be dealt with. I'm furious with the fact that the people that did that in the video did it - I, also, agree 100% that they seriously need to have their heads examined (and yes...I do know that with me saying what I am that the people involved may very well have an issue with me as well as the DZ). I do, however, believe that the FIRST line of dealing with an issue is to talk to the people involved NOT air it online or anywhere.

I agree, but we don't know if the person really did go to the people involved or not. Maybe the issue was brought to light because of the lack of stands that USPA and the DZ took. Maybe putting the video out there will put some heat on the right people.

PillotDave:
I like that Hook is still involved. He keeps people on their toes. Plus he's one hell of a rigger.

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But anyway, one stupid jump doesn't make a DZ unsafe. But I still woulda liked to see that they were somehow disciplined, if not fired on the spot. Does a DZ's apparent willingness to ignore an event like this make it less safe than if they'd fired the jumpers involved? Did anyone learn any lessons that made it safer than it was before?

No, one stupid thing doesn't make a DZ unsafe. And I agree with you, I'd like to see/know that the people were disciplined for their lack of judgement. Kind of like raising children. If one child sees that another child was punished for a negative action, that child might think twice before doing something stupid. Just my thoughts.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[bob.dino 0]

I said everyone that appears to know the name is in or around CO, not that everyone in or around CO knows the name. Different.

And, for the record, based on your posts I assumed you knew which DZ this occurred at. My apologies for reading something into your posts that wasn't there.

[MarkM 0]

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If I got caught with forgerys on FAA app. Would go to jail!!! Since we are dealing with public...shouldnt same be in effect,instead of uspa trying to sweep this under carpet!!!!!!

All the USPA can do is suspend ratings, because there are no laws being broken. Any whuffo can go out and buy a couple rigs, rent a plane and teach a first jump course without having ever made a single jump himself if he wants to. There's nothing the USPA could do about it, because no one has to be a member of the USPA to skydive in the US. And the FAA doesn't rate skydivers, they rate the gear and the planes.

And frankly a DZ not being a USPA member isn't a big deal at all for the dropzone either. Skydive America dropped their USPA membership over some issues and it didn't hurt their business any. So the USPA can hardly hang the spectre of losing USPA membership over a DZ's head. They can either work with the DZ as best as they can to try to improve things or totally shut them out with zero chance of the dropzone improving at all.

[tdog 0]

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Anyway... I still haven't seen the name of the DZ even mentioned (except in the original description that came with the video, which I removed before approving it).

It hasn't been mentioned, but given that everyone who appears to know the name is based in or around CO, it's a fair bet that it's another case of Colorado jumpers washing their dirty linen in public.

Hell, I could probably guess the DZ, and I live in Australia.

Ouch.... Tripple ouch.... Being I am from Colorado and I don't recognize the plane or any of the jumpers, I will be the first to say, I don't think so...

There are rules against personal attacks on this forum... What about attacks against a whole state.

[bob.dino 0]

Sorry if I offended any Colorado folk. Wasn't intended .

[pilotdave 0]

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I like that Hook is still involved. He keeps people on their toes. Plus he's one hell of a rigger.

I didn't mean he shouldn't be involved. I just can't understand how he can be so involved in all the negativity associated with the sport and not jump to make up for it. I mean, I wouldn't like skydiving if it weren't for the, ya know, skydiving part.

And bob.dino... no reason to speculate. 'Snot CO or even atlanta! ... not even nearby.

Dave

[skydiverek 54]

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if nobody downloaded it can nobody pm me

Same here. PM me, please.

[popsjumper 2]

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...There are rules against personal attacks on this forum... What about attacks against a whole state.

Be glad you're not (from) Texas....

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[flyangel2 2]

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My apologies for reading something into your posts that wasn't there.

Thank you. That means so much to me when some one makes an apology.

Now, if you have figured out where that Tandem happened, shine some light my way

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Take this with a grain of salt please, as I don't know you or your situation in what has happened...but...Do you really think that someone who has access to a video such as this, and has it posted is going to "open" themselves to the general skydiving community? Or to even others at the dropzone where they all jump (I'm assuming here)? The only thing that could happen by admiting that it was them that posted the video or turned the video over or whatever would be what? A lynching? An ass whooping? I don't get what your looking for here as to whom this person is. Whom they are isn't important here is it?? Yeah they may have a grudge, so what. But they sure were not the one's in the video that acted in the manner that is represented by the tape. I just don't see what it matters what this person's motives are or is, it is pretty irrelevant at this time. IMO.

I agree. Knowing who posted the video serves no purpose, and would likely only cause problems for the poster.

It's video, not an eyewitness account. The credibility is not dependent upon the identity of the person who posted it.

[tdog 0]

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Sorry if I offended any Colorado folk. Wasn't intended .

Thank you for saying that...

[sitflyer35 0]

Another place to see the video

http://www.sharkle.com/?a=video&id=2578

[Elisha 1]

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...I mean, I wouldn't like skydiving if it weren't for the, ya know, skydiving part.

What are you talking about?!? I go to the dz all the time just to pack - it's so much fun! I just ask people who are done jumping if I can pack for them since I like the practice......


NOT!




Jump=fun, other stuff (besides the Apres jumping) = not so fun.

[The111 0]

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What are you talking about?!? I go to the dz all the time just to pack - it's so much fun!

Me too, I keep jumping out of these airplanes just to get my parachute UN-packed. I wish I could find an easier and cheaper way to get that thing out of the container...

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[diverdriver 5]

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redramdriver, I was not involved in the video and did not know of it's existence until it was posted.

My last comment on it and that's 'cause I respect you and a few others in this thread - although they may not know it.

Mary, I agree that safety needs to be dealt with. I'm furious with the fact that the people that did that in the video did it - I, also, agree 100% that they seriously need to have their heads examined (and yes...I do know that with me saying what I am that the people involved may very well have an issue with me as well as the DZ). I do, however, believe that the FIRST line of dealing with an issue is to talk to the people involved NOT air it online or anywhere.

Cora, when I started posting about aircraft safety I was bombarded with people who were pissed about me posting accidents. These were the official accident reports that anyone could find online. And they were pissed. They said I had an "agenda". Well, yah, safety is my agenda.

The heat this DZ is taking seems similar to the heat another DZ just to the south of you took some years back over a long period. Do you see any similarities?

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[ShadowPenguin 0]

wow...from a student 2 jump stand point, I probably woulda said sure its cool if you do that, as i'm sure this student did, but then after actually seeing it and reading about what COULD have happened I woulda freaked.....thats just me. I didnt even know how important the drouge was untill i started researching on these forums. Hindsight of course always being 20/20.

not about to get all OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!! or anything but i hope the proper sanctions were taken against the people responsible.

/my .02

[LawnDart21 0]

In reply to the tandem instructors explanation, I feel compelled to give my .02.

Skydiving is a very "blame intensive" sport. Whether its 2 canopies in a near miss on landing, taking out a formation by docking to hard, banging containers in the door, etc, whenever there is an issue, it seems in skydiving there (for better or for worse) must always be someone or something held accountable for the issue. With that said, I prefer to look at responsibility rather than blame.

In this instance, the TM was and is solely responsible for the events that took place on that skydive. Here's why. The Tandem Instructor allowed those people on his jump. The priviledge of being a TM hinges upon a singular responsibility of returning your student back to the ground safely. ANything that happens that might jeopardize the students safety or the instructors safety, for any reason, is the responsibility of the TM, as it is THEIR student, thus THEIR responsibility to return the student back to the ground safely.

You (the TM) chose to leave an airplane with your friends in tow (literally and figurately....), therefore you bore %100 of the responsibility of anything that happened on that skydive to yourself and your passenger.

Remember any hallmark jump, 1000, 2000, 3000 as a tandem is mostlikely also a hallmark jump for your student, thier 1st. In every instance, thier 1st jump must always outweigh your 1000th jump, 2000th jump, and so on, in terms of priority.

As as aside, my 1000th jump was an uneventful tandem with video. I had hoped it would be a sunset tracking dive with my friends, but a busy day on the DZ turned it into a work jump. As excited as I was for making jump #1000, my students jump #1 was more important, so away we went on a boring old tandem, and I gotta say, my student had a blast, and I got a keep sake (copy of the video) of the milestone jump as well.

As for the other knuckleheads on that jump. I would love to know the explanation that was given for grabbing the drogue bridle. If I saw that on tandem video I was the TM for, I'd be in jail for assault, because I would have knocked out anyone that jeopardized my student and my life like that.

So with that said, whether the TM knew about it or not before hand is a moot point. If he did and he lied to cover his own butt, so be it, that happens in our sport ocassionally. He'll have to live with himself for doing it. If he didnt know, it was a learning experience and hopefully he is the better for it, but keep in mind, fault or no fault 100% of the responsibility for safety of a student lies with the TANDEM INSTRUCTOR, if another jumper fucks you up in the air, its still YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, because YOU ALLLOWED THEM TO BE THERE.

As for the other knuckleheads on that jump, they need to go play golf, if they, with all there instructoral ratings, are too f'ing stupid to realize that leaving linked with a tandem pair and grabbing a drogue bridle are FUCKING DANGEROUS AND STUPID, then they dont deserve to be skydivers.

For the rest of you that will end up in airplanes with these guys down the road, remember, you are less safe because you are in the air with these people. Stupid is as stupid does, and if they can fuck like this once, you better believe they can fuck like that again, just pray you arent in the air with them when they do.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You (the TM)

I wasn't the TM on that skydive...........I just quoted from the discussion below the download button on skydivemovies.com.

Derek

[LawnDart21 0]

I knew that. I was saying "You" figuratively. Your post had the TMs expalanation on it. Sorry, wasnt implying you were him.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[davelepka 4]

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100% of the responsibility for safety of a student lies with the TANDEM INSTRUCTOR, if another jumper fucks you up in the air, its still YOUR RESPONSIBILITY, because YOU ALLLOWED THEM TO BE THERE

In light of this, is a TM responsible for the actions of a camera flyer? What if the TM had jumped with said camera flyer in the past without incident, but the guy got a little tight on the opening shot, and contacted the student during deployment? Is the TM responsible?

With this question, I'm making the assumption that any TM who was assigned a camera flyer they believed to be unsafe would refuse the jump or demand another camera flyer.

[Hooknswoop 19]

No worries. Someone else thought I was the TI because of that post. Thought I should clarify
Derek

[LawnDart21 0]

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In light of this, is a TM responsible for the actions of a camera flyer?

Yes.

As the TM you take full (%100) responsibility for the safety and well being of your student when you choose to take them on a jump.

As for jumping with videographers, thats where trust comes in. I have 4 videographers I work with, and I can say that I trust all 4 with my life and the life of my student. If I didnt trust them unqueestionably with my life and m students life, I absolutely, positively would not jump with them. But at the end of the day, if anything happens to my student, even if its videographer induced, its still my responsibility.

As a TM I have one job and one job only, bring my student back to the ground safely. Just because we have a videographer with us, doesnt mean that I am now any less responsible for my student.

But again I want to emphasize, any TM that leaves an airplane with a student attached to them is accepting %100 full responsibility for the safety of their student.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.