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sitflyer35

Questionable Tandem Video

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Regarding the recent PM you sent me:

Since you disabled PM right after you sent your reply to me, I'm forced to post here. I am very concerned about safety and would love the opportunity to discuss with you face to face any issues that you may have. I don't think you are solving anything by making anonymous posts on dropzone.com. I think you would get much more done by contributing to the open discussions that happen at our DZ every month in the form of board meetings and club meetings. Feel free to e-mail me, call me or grab me at the club. But then again, doing any of those things would mean I would then know who you are, and you have shown time and time again that you have no desire to let that happen. Should you change your mind, the offer stands.

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...What kind of explanation are you looking for? ...but I don't think the exit looks like death on a stick.

Blues,
Dave



I was seeing the TIs explanation that apparently absolved himself of responsibility for much of the things that happened but not anything about the launch that was highly unusual....I don't know enough about tandem lauches to be able to seriously comment on the safety of it but it doesn't appear to be a good thing to me to have someone grabbing harness on a tandem. I was interested in his explanation for that.

If you have input for me on that, please do.

Thanks
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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what pisses me off is the action taken by relative workshop and uspa!!!Heard he got rating suspended,not due to action, but lost aff rating as well as tandem for forging signatures on his renewals,and examiner ratings!!! If I got caught with forgerys on FAA app. Would go to jail!!! Since we are dealing with public...shouldnt same be in effect,instead of uspa trying to sweep this under carpet!!!!!!
Only he can be happy,who can make his the present hour,for today he has lived




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what pisses me off is the action taken by relative workshop and uspa!!!Heard he got rating suspended,not due to action, but lost aff rating as well as tandem for forging signatures on his renewals,and examiner ratings!!! If I got caught with forgerys on FAA app. Would go to jail!!! Since we are dealing with public...shouldnt same be in effect,instead of uspa trying to sweep this under carpet!!!!!!



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

RWS and USPA punished the guilty bastard as much as they could.
USPA's cruelest punishment is to suspend ratings.
USPA cannot send people to jail.
Demanding punishments greater than the legal limit is a waste of time and bandwidth.



... "A wise man only picks the fights he can win."

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phast1701 :: 8:48 AM 10/11/05

Nicknitro71,

No, that was not the plan.

There were 5 people in the air on that jump. The cameraman in front of the tandem pair, the tandem pair, the two instructors who messed with the drogue, and one other instructor who stayed back when he saw what was going on.

The instructor in front of the tandem pair on exit was supposed to freefly the exit. He held on to my student instead. What you don't see in the video, because it is too far away, is that I was beating his hands to get him off my student. Then I got stable and deployed the drogue. That jumper then flew up and grabbed my drogue. What would you have me do at that point? Deploy in his face? That's certainly not a safe option. At that point I was a sitting duck and I didn't know if anyone else was above me in my blind spot.

The second jumper (whose video you are watching) then takes it upon himself to come in and grab the bridle and pull me and my student into a sit position as we are near pull altitude. I don't know what he was thinking. There is no way I would ever put a student in this position.

The camera man in front of me who was sitflying was there because I wanted him to video my 1000th jump. He has videoed me on many tandems and frequently goes into a sit to get good video of the student's face and to keep up with me as my fall rate is usually pretty fast. He has told me that he was not aware of what was going to happen and frankly I believe him.

There was extensive discussion with the local tandem examiner, the instructors involved, and with Relative Workshop. There was disciplinary action taken and I believe it was appropriate.

Relative Workshop was notified and a report was filed. They are satisfied with the disciplinary action that was taken and consider the incident closed. They are using this video as an example of what not to do.

Normally I do not monitor the skydiving forums. A friend and fellow skydiver who knows how seriously I take my students safety told me about all the posts. I took this incident seriously and personally. I will defer to the wisdom of Relative Workshop and my local tandem examiner and I am satisfied with the action that was taken. I do believe that the two instructors involved understand the severity of their actions. And I have learned to be more careful about who I allow in the air with me and my students.




From the discussion about the video.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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>I wouldn't call that launch "highly unusual", I have seen it done many times.

I was a TM for a few years, and would not have a problem with someone holding onto a harness for exit (and then getting off immediately) or someone doing RW with a student, provided in both cases they were appropriately experienced (AFF-I at least.) The danger isn't so much that they're touching you, it's that tandems can slide under people very easily, and you need people who are trained to get out of the way of sliding students/deploying parachutes. And AFF-I's have experience with just that.

The hanging onto the drouge bridle _is_ a big deal, because a) thestudent can fire that thing at any time, even if the handle is hard for him to get to and b) pulling on the bridle/standing on the container can cause a premature drouge release and deployment. Imagine trying to deal with a skydiver entangled in your tandem main.

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Oh boo, I'll bet nobody downloaded that to their hard drive either...oh well!



Nope. ;)
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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I can’t believe you think safety is not my concern; safety at a DZ should by everyone’s concern. These people involved in this jumps are all instructors. They are the ones who train our students. If they can’t be safe themselves we must question how they are teaching their students. I don’t think Relative Workshop approves of a harness hold exit; furthermore the TI did at least 3 summersaults with another jumper attached along with deploying the drogue. Also the TI needs to be stable and throw the drogue within 5 seconds. It was very possible that the student could have pulled the main without the TI knowing about it. If that happened with the jumper above it could have resulted in 3 deaths. Then if that was not bad enough the second jumper stood on the tandem pair and pulled the drogue from the attachment point. Had the pin became dislodged there was a possibility of three deaths. In my eyes just about everything in this jump was unsafe


Not only are these people teaching our new students they are also sending a message to lower experienced jumpers that this is ok. They should be setting an example of safety and good judgment. Younger jumpers see this kind of stuff and say well if they are doing it must be safe. They don’t know any better.

I am not saying that this video has anything to do with the two deaths there but I have to ask the question what kind of safety and training environment is in place here. Maybe if emergency procedures were stressed these other incidents would not have happened.

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And I think that if safety were your true concern then you would come to the monthly meetings the club has and express your concern and be up front and honest about who you are. I, also, think that instead of going online doing a smear campaign that you would be contacting USPA and Relative Workshop and airing your concerns - oh...but that would be a problem since you don't want people to know who you are.

The fact that you are hiding and not willing to admit to who you are suggests very strongly - along with the 2 deleted posts that were in the incidents thread - that you have more on your agenda than safety.

I am not saying that safety should not be the number 1 concern at any dropzone or with any skydiver. I'm 100000% questioning your motives behind it.
Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

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The quote Fast found and copied to dz.com:
Quote

The instructor in front of the tandem pair on exit was supposed to freefly the exit. He held on to my student instead. What you don't see in the video, because it is too far away, is that I was beating his hands to get him off my student. Then I got stable and deployed the drogue. That jumper then flew up and grabbed my drogue. What would you have me do at that point? Deploy in his face? That's certainly not a safe option. At that point I was a sitting duck and I didn't know if anyone else was above me in my blind spot.

The second jumper (whose video you are watching) then takes it upon himself to come in and grab the bridle and pull me and my student into a sit position as we are near pull altitude. I don't know what he was thinking. There is no way I would ever put a student in this position.



The word "Instructor" keeps popping up... It sure does not look like the worse offender flies like an instructor... Doing 4way with him would be scary... Putting him with "students" would be worse...

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Take this with a grain of salt please, as I don't know you or your situation in what has happened...but...Do you really think that someone who has access to a video such as this, and has it posted is going to "open" themselves to the general skydiving community? Or to even others at the dropzone where they all jump (I'm assuming here)? The only thing that could happen by admiting that it was them that posted the video or turned the video over or whatever would be what? A lynching? An ass whooping? I don't get what your looking for here as to whom this person is. Whom they are isn't important here is it?? Yeah they may have a grudge, so what. But they sure were not the one's in the video that acted in the manner that is represented by the tape. I just don't see what it matters what this person's motives are or is, it is pretty irrelevant at this time. IMO.
So, you bring your beer?

Its 5 o'clock somewhere
POPS #9344

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Cora, think about this.

The guy/gal opens up and goes to the meeting. He is then given a hard time there, and asked to never come back and skydive at that DZ. Trust me; I know what happens when you confront problems in the face at a political DZ.

I back sitflyer 100% without having to know who he/she is. That video needed to get out there for people to see. Maybe then USPA will take a stronger stand against instructors that don't follow the rules.
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

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And I think that if safety were your true concern then you would come to the monthly meetings the club has and express your concern and be up front and honest about who you are.



Ya, that would work.:S. What happens in reality is the person is ostracized from the DZ if not banned entirely.

DZ's are little kingdoms and the DZO is the king. They don't answer to anyone.

Derek

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Cora, think about this.

The guy/gal opens up and goes to the meeting. He is then given a hard time there, and asked to never come back and skydive at that DZ. Trust me; I know what happens when you confront problems in the face at a political DZ.

I back sitflyer 100% without having to know who he/she is. That video needed to get out there for people to see. Maybe then USPA will take a stronger stand against instructors that don't follow the rules.



I agree. I support sitflyer too. BTW USPA has a copy of the video.

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redramdriver, I was not involved in the video and did not know of it's existence until it was posted.

My last comment on it and that's 'cause I respect you and a few others in this thread - although they may not know it.

Mary, I agree that safety needs to be dealt with. I'm furious with the fact that the people that did that in the video did it - I, also, agree 100% that they seriously need to have their heads examined (and yes...I do know that with me saying what I am that the people involved may very well have an issue with me as well as the DZ). I do, however, believe that the FIRST line of dealing with an issue is to talk to the people involved NOT air it online or anywhere.
Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

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I can't figure you out. You quit jumping cause of the bullshit involved. Yet you still do everything in skydiving except the fun part. And you still whine about the things you didn't like that caused you to quit! Why don't you freaking just keep jumping if you're gonna stay involved anyway??

Anyway... I still haven't seen the name of the DZ even mentioned (except in the original description that came with the video, which I removed before approving it). If you're gonna go and accuse a DZ of being unsafe and get yourself banished forever, ya might as well go all the way with it, right? This attempt was just half assed. :)
But anyway, one stupid jump doesn't make a DZ unsafe. But I still woulda liked to see that they were somehow disciplined, if not fired on the spot. Does a DZ's apparent willingness to ignore an event like this make it less safe than if they'd fired the jumpers involved? Did anyone learn any lessons that made it safer than it was before?

It was a cool video anyway. One of those "that kinda think REALLY happens??" sorta videos. Makes new people like me wonder if it was a really oddball kinda jump, or was it just odd in that it "got out?"

Dave

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