I'm unhappy about the Skyhook ad in the October Parachutist

[tso-d_chris 0]

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There's a full page ad for Skyhook on page 46 of the Oct Parachutist that rubs me wrong. It compares EP's with and without Skyhook. On the left half of the page is the "Non-Skyhook Cutaway Procedure"

1. Cutaway
2. Get Stable or Not
3. Pull Reserve Handle
4. Reserve Deploying

On the right half of the page: The Skyhook procedure

1. Cutaway
2. Smile

I'm annoyed that the Skyhook procedure omits pulling the reserve handle.

It is irresponsible advertising, IMO.

Having said that, I spent a couple hours at RWS yesterday, much of which was spent hearing about the Skyhook, and never once was not pulling silver advocated. In fact, it was said specifically that pulling the silver handle is still a necessary part of EPs.

[riddler 0]

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I sure hope nobody takes their skdiving instruction from magazine advertisement.

I think a lot of up-jumpers are looking at this ad, and thinking "same old gear, slight modification, no change to EPs".

I am looking through the eyes of a student, a consumer that doesn't understand the gear, and thinking "complete redesign of the gear, reduces steps of EPs". In this case, I think there's cause to say that a student could easily buy this gear and assume they no longer have to follow the old EPs. Most are going to talk to instructors and learn different. A few may not.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Airman1270 0]

...I don't think it would be that hard to put an asterisk in the ad, with fine print that says "always follow appropriate emergency procedures, including pulling the reserve handle if appropriate". And it wouldn't hurt to add "always consult your instructors for advice"...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Aw, c'mon guys, do we REALLY have to encourage the use of insulting, everybody-already-knows-that advice? This is the same mentaility the demands our mains have those unsightly warning labels on the back end, reminding us that, if you participate in this sport, you expose yourself to risks you wouldn't otherwise have to deal with.

Regarding the ad in question, have you noticed it's not to scale? If that really is 100', that guy would have to be about 15' tall.

The skyhook might be a nice innovation, but I can't get past my fear of my last canopy deploying while I'm in an uncontrolled spin. (Remember that real neat photo of the skyhook system in action over Florida a year or two ago?)

I prefer to get my main out plenty high enough that the added benefits of the skyhook, or even an RSL, won't be an issue.

Cheers,
Jon S.

[Ron 7]

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What do you call paying for that full page ad if not advocation? Why include it in the non-Skyhook procedure if it's implied that one will follow full EP's regardless of having an RSL or not?

think about it this way:

You have a mal,
you grab the handles,
you pull the cutaway,
You have a canopy before you can even pull the reserve....So you smile.

Thats what I think it meant.

Bill would NEVER tell someone not to pull the reserve handle as part of an EP even with a skyhook....But if you have a canopy already over your head, what are you gonna do? Smile

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,384]

>I sure hope nobody takes their skdiving instruction from magazine
>advertisement.

Sadly, many do. Heck, they base their gear decisions on ads; I've heard more than one person parroting an ad line when justifying their gear decisions.

>If a person believes he no longer has to pull silver because of some
> picture in a magazine....then, well....there's a much larger issue
> lurking, and such an individual is gonna have a sad day when critical
> thinking skills are needed.

Many skydivers don't have such skills. We see people every weekend wanting to jump absurdly small canopies, trying to get into dives that are over their heads, and showing a remarkable lack of knowledge about gear. I recall one guy who was pretty sure he wasn't supposed to touch the reserve handle during a cutaway situation. He had learned on an SOS with an RSL reserve ball (similar to the Vector tandem ball.) Somewhere along the way he had heard that the SOS handle was on the right with experienced-jumper rigs; in an emergency he just had to pull the new handle and all would be well.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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I think a lot of up-jumpers are looking at this ad, and thinking "same old gear, slight modification, no change to EPs".

If that were a true statement I wouldnt read of experienced jumpers going in with no handles pulled.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Ron 7]

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This sport is no longer a lifestyle. It's a recreation observed by some on an impossibly infrequent basis, and most people are better in their heads than they are in real life.

Maybe the best quote EVER.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,384]

>do we REALLY have to encourage the use of insulting,
>everybody-already-knows-that advice?

Yes, because some skydivers really don't know that. Unfortunately, we need warnings on wingsuits not to land them, and warnings on cypreses that they are no substitute for emergency procedures. Because history has shown that if you don't tell people over and over that the cypres is fallible, they will start to believe it's infallible. (That's just one example.)

Take a potential canopy ad:

Swooping with a Nitron:
1. Start your swoop
2. Hope you got the altitude right
3. Try to guess your flare point
4. Hope you get the pullout right and then flare

Swooping with a Stiletto:
1. Start your swoop
2. Smile

And you could justify that by saying "a stiletto has such a short recovery arc that you're not going to be as near the ground when you recover, so you don't have to worry." But it would still be a quite misleading ad.

[mnealtx 0]

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I sure hope nobody takes their skdiving instruction from magazine advertisement.

I think a lot of up-jumpers are looking at this ad, and thinking "same old gear, slight modification, no change to EPs".

I am looking through the eyes of a student, a consumer that doesn't understand the gear, and thinking "complete redesign of the gear, reduces steps of EPs". In this case, I think there's cause to say that a student could easily buy this gear and assume they no longer have to follow the old EPs. Most are going to talk to instructors and learn different. A few may not.

As you can see from my profile, I'm just off student status - there is no way in *HELL* that I would not pull the reserve handle regardless of what devices I had available to assist, and I have both and AAD and Skyhook.

Anyone that would believe an ad over the manual for their equipment or their instructor's training should probably T.U.G., IMO

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[labrys 0]

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Find an ad in most any industry that is based on accurate instruction on the use of its product and I'll show you a very boring ad. Sorry this bothers you.

Okay... I understand that. I'm amused by ads that imply that if I by this handcam hot chicks will suddenly swarm around me, or that if I buy that rig I'll suddenly be infused with the RW skills of a seasoned Arizona Airspeed team member. I'm NOT amused by ads selling safety gear that even remotely imply a change in EPs.

If the ad had omitted a reserve pull on BOTH sets of gear I would have moved along without a second thought. What rubs me the wrong way if that the ad specifically includes a reserve pull for non-Skyhook RSLs and doesn't include it for Skyhook.

Owned by Remi #?

[vdschoor 0]

I partially agree here.... yes the ad could have been done a bit different to show that the jumper with the skyhook still went for silver as well..

On another note.. (I have no cutaways yet.. so this is from speaking to people that do)

A lot of people with an RSL that have had a cutaway still had the silver in place when they landed.. not because they didnt execute the full EPs but because as they were switching from the cutaway to silver, they already had an inflating reserve canopy over their heads..
In their minds they executed the whole thing, cutaway -> reserve but the RSL beat them to it..

ALWAYS stick to your standard EPs, but in case you have a skyhook... that device will probably beat you to it, still go for silver though, cause that's your EP..

[MarkM 0]

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think about it this way:

You have a mal,
you grab the handles,
you pull the cutaway,
You have a canopy before you can even pull the reserve....So you smile.

Thats what I think it meant.

That's pretty much how I saw the ad.

Another interpretation:

1> See an ad.
2> Incite the mob.
3> Grab the torches.
4> (best Monty Python voice) Burn the witch.

[labrys 0]

I see it this way I guess:

ALWAYS stick to your standard EPs, but in case you have an RSL of any type... that device will probably beat you to it, still go for silver though, cause that's your EP..

Owned by Remi #?

[labrys 0]

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1> See an ad.
2> Incite the mob.
3> Grab the torches.
4> (best Monty Python voice) Burn the witch.

This isn't even close to my intent. I have a lot of respect for the Skyhook. Implying that I posted my concern as some sort of lark or that I'm just trying to incite a mob is a gross misunderstanding of my intentions and an insult. I feel that I have a legitimate opinion and that this forum is a legitimate place to discuss it.

Owned by Remi #?

[pilotdave 0]

I suggest that they revise the ad for next month.

1. Cut away.
2. Smile.
3. Pull reserve handle anyway

It's not a procedure, it's a chain of events. Not the way you'll train, but rather the way it'll realistically happen. Train to pull both handles. But in reality, you'll be pulling the second handle just for the sake of following procedures (it's good practice, so why not?). If the RSL fails, you'll skip #2 and already be heading for #3. But they've laid out the best case scenario for a skyhook cutaway vs a cutaway with no RSL. It's an ad. They're allowed.

BTW, in my opinion, the less fine print the better.

Dave

[riddler 0]

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1> See an ad.
2> Incite the mob.
3> Grab the torches.
4> (best Monty Python voice) Burn the witch.

My next rig will likely be a Vector. Why? Skyhook. But good innovation and good technology doesn't absolve manufacturers from responsible advertising. I bet this is just a case of RWS not seeing this one issue of an otherwise good ad.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[HydroGuy 0]

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Loss of altitude awareness is always a risk and was a primary reason for me purchasing an AAD but after 12 years without incident I have managed to avoid that and no longer feel an AAD is an asset in my rig.



Of course, that's never going to happen for the same reason AIDS spreads. Everyone thinks it will happen to someone else.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[midnightrider 0]

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think about it this way:

You have a mal,
you grab the handles,
you pull the cutaway,
You have a canopy before you can even pull the reserve....So you smile.

Thats what I think it meant.

That's pretty much how I saw the ad.

Another interpretation:

1> See an ad.
2> Incite the mob.
3> Grab the torches.
4> (best Monty Python voice) Burn the witch.

hahahaha you know guys, i dont want to really add to the fire or get flamed for that matter, but dear god some of this crap i read on DZ is quite depressing...i think that alot of people on here would rather spend a good night curled up around a freaking SIM manual rather than their significant other..Do we have nothing else to do other than bitch about the marketing procedures of a highly succesful gear manufacturer? Lastly, i'd like to say that I've met a ton of dumb asses in skydiving ..although i will say if they make it past aff, blow off all previous ground schooling because of a magazine ad , and burn in because they didnt know what to do in a total mal, they're idiots in the first place and will give skydiving a bad name regardless.. i just hope they dont burn in on somebody more intellectual.

cant wait to see this thread locked

[thepollster 0]

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But....I sure hope nobody takes their skdiving instruction from magazine advertisement.

If you look at the Cypres/swooping thread going on, apparently some people do take instruction from an ad. See the references to "Cypress2-good for pond swooping" ad.

[HydroGuy 0]

This thread reeks of litigation attorney mentality...and it stinks.

Yeah, maybe RW should put an asterick and disclaimer at the bottom of the ad. It would be just like a Valtrex ad, or a car ad. Or a radio commercial where the attorney speaks as fast as he can with the BS specifics at the end.

And if a newer jumper buying gear (which is what I am) thinks from that ad he/she no longer needs to pull silver, HIS/HER INSTRUCTORS FAILED...either by failing to teach him/her proper EP's, or passing him/her off student status when he/she has an improper grasp of EP's.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[goose491 0]

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This thread reeks of litigation attorney mentality...and it stinks.

Yeah, maybe RW should put an asterick and disclaimer at the bottom of the ad. It would be just like a Valtrex ad, or a car ad. Or a radio commercial where the attorney speaks as fast as he can with the BS specifics at the end.

And then there's the law of precidence which would make it necessary that all ads become idiot proof.

This thread reminds me of that person who sued a company because she bought coffee from them, spilled it on herself.... and it was HOT. lol.

I got the spoof in the ad. I thought it was funny.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[HydroGuy 0]

LOL...that attachment of the pocket knife reads, "Keep Out Of Children"...does that mean don't stab little kids?

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[goose491 0]

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LOL...that attachment of the pocket knife reads, "Keep Out Of Children"...does that mean don't stab little kids?

I guess it's to make sure people who buy the knife understand that that is not one of it's intended uses?

...I thought it applied here.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[jlmiracle 7]

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And if a newer jumper buying gear (which is what I am) thinks from that ad he/she no longer needs to pull silver, HIS/HER INSTRUCTORS FAILED...either by failing to teach him/her proper EP's, or passing him/her off student status when he/she has an improper grasp of EP's.

Fortunately we teach students their emergency procedures. Unfortunately, when they get a couple hundred jumps and get some new cool and groovey "safety" items, they think they are bullet proof and don't have pull all their handles. I asked one guy with about 200 jumps and 1 cutway if on his malfunction he pulled all his handles, he said "NO, I have a skyhook, I don't have to pull all my handles, hehehehehe."

I explained to him he needs to pull all his handles and he just shrugged me off.

If he chooses to not to follow his EP that he was taught, that is his problem, not his instructors fault.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[HydroGuy 0]

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Fortunately we teach students their emergency procedures. Unfortunately, when they get a couple hundred jumps and get some new cool and groovey "safety" items, they think they are bullet proof and don't have pull all their handles.

New and groovey? You mean an RSL? Isn't a Skyhook an RSL? Doesn't EVERY student rig have an RSL?

My instructors made it quite clear to me to always pull silver on an RSL equipt rig. I can hear Mark Hornig right now telling me, "If you have a cutaway and the RSL deploys the reserve, I still better not catch you with the D-ring in its pocket."

Were you this individuals instructor? Or are you defending their instructors based upon blind faith?

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary