I'm unhappy about the Skyhook ad in the October Parachutist

[jlmiracle 7]

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Isn't a Skyhook an RSL?

No, from my understanding it is not and I thought your bitch was with the Skyhook, not the RSL.

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Doesn't EVERY student rig have an RSL?

Mine do, but I don't teach them to rely on it.

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Were you this individuals instructor?

Nope

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Or are you defending their instructors based upon blind faith?

Blind faith? hardly. Like I said this guy had about 200 jump when he had his first malfunction. He purchased a skyhook all on his own, and somewhere along the line of buying this skyhook he was told or his understanding was he doesn't have to pull ALL his handles.

I think we might be on the same page here, but blaming instructors for everything is not right. We are not talking about someone fresh of student status. People will and always have made up their own minds. If they choose to follow the advice of the experienced and informed then that's what they will do, if they choose to ignore the experienced and informed, then I hope they don't kill me or someone else.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[MikeForsythe 0]

How about this:

We hire attorneys; loss prevention experts, technical writers and take out publication errors and omissions insurance to make sure the ads are perfect legally? Oh and by the way, that will be an extra $500 a rig to cover the cost!

And by the way, I guess the ad should also show all emergency procedures for all possible malfunctions too.

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[labrys 0]

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And by the way, I guess the ad should also show all emergency procedures for all possible malfunctions too.

I agree with your thoughts to some extent but my original point stands: Why did they include pulling silver as a non-Skyhook necessity and why didn't they include it as a Skyhook necessity. I'm not looking at this in an attempt to pick apart all possible faults with the company or the device. I intend to buy one when I buy my next rig.

I have a problem with the implications of the ad. My problem with the ad is specific and black and white to me, but maybe not to others. I'm not thinking about what possible legal consequences there are or who's resonsibility it is to make sure someone follows correct EPs, I'm looking at at the specific implications of the ad and voicing my opinion about it.

I think it's a shame that some of the posters here can't seem to voice a dissenting opinion, which I would gladly listen to and thoughtfully consider, without calling anyone who has a different opinion an idiot or a loser or a jackass or a moron.

Owned by Remi #?

[HydroGuy 0]

1. A Skyhook IS an RSL...might be the new and improved version, but it is none-the-less an RSL.

2. I have a brand new Vector 3 getting rigged up at the Perris Loft as we speak...complete with a Skyhook that I paid 185 bucks as an option for. Wherever you got the notion that I had a "bitch" with the Skyhook is beyond me.

I might be a newer jumper (~8 months/~170 jumps), but jumping at busy assed Perris I have had the oppurtunity to view/observe/learn/listen from many different people.

In this time, I have witnessed probably 25 (or more) different instructors on hundreds of Tandems and AFF's. This includes their dirt dives, in plane briefings etc.

The conclusion I have come to is NOT ALL INSTRUCTORS ARE MADE EQUAL.

It appears to me that you indeed are defending his instructors based upon blind faith...since admittedly you were not his instructor, nor did you sit through AFF courses, jumps, and debriefs as an observer.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[jlmiracle 7]

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nor did you sit through AFF courses, jumps, and debriefs as an observer.

and apparently you did...

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Wherever you got the notion that I had a "bitch" with the Skyhook is beyond me.

I got you confused with the original poster.

So when you make a mistake, you are going to be one of THOSE people who blame their instructors. Thank god you jump over there.

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might be a newer jumper (~8 months/~170 jumps), In this time, I have witnessed probably 25 (or more) different instructors on hundreds of Tandems and AFF's. This includes their dirt dives, in plane briefings etc.

My bad, you are an expert.

a skyhook is like an RSL but different.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[thepollster 0]

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My bad, you are an expert.

a skyhook is like an RSL but different.

Well, at least he isn't the only expert here
The skyhook IS an RSL, albeit an improved version. Saying it isn't an RSL is like saying a Grand Caravan isn't a Cessna, IE, it is, just not necessarily the first type that comes to mind.

[HydroGuy 0]

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So when you make a mistake, you are going to be one of THOSE people who blame their instructors.

I don't blame anyone for my mistakes but myself. And I had good instructors, not some of the bad ones.

But apparently you are one of THOSE people who thinks everyone with an AFF rating is a good instructor...hate to burst your bubble, but you are WRONG!!!

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My bad, you are an expert.

Nice try, especially when I clearly stated for you and the whole world to see that I am a newer jumper. And heaven forbid a newer jumper could actually observe many different instructors and come to the conclusion that not all instructors are good instructors.

Actually, you must be the expert...other than knowing what a Skyhook is.

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Thank god you jump over there.

Yeah, thank god. And you don't come rushing over here...we have enough pompous, egotistical instructors floating around...certainly don't need another.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[Lindsey 0]

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>I sure hope nobody takes their skdiving instruction from magazine
>advertisement.

Sadly, many do. Heck, they base their gear decisions on ads; I've heard more than one person parroting an ad line when justifying their gear decisions.

>If a person believes he no longer has to pull silver because of some
> picture in a magazine....then, well....there's a much larger issue
> lurking, and such an individual is gonna have a sad day when critical
> thinking skills are needed.

Many skydivers don't have such skills. We see people every weekend wanting to jump absurdly small canopies, trying to get into dives that are over their heads, and showing a remarkable lack of knowledge about gear. I recall one guy who was pretty sure he wasn't supposed to touch the reserve handle during a cutaway situation. He had learned on an SOS with an RSL reserve ball (similar to the Vector tandem ball.) Somewhere along the way he had heard that the SOS handle was on the right with experienced-jumper rigs; in an emergency he just had to pull the new handle and all would be well.

How frustrating it must be attempting to save these folks from themselves.

Today a surgeon I've been working with told me about a woman who heard if she cut a potato and put it in her vagina she wouldn't get pregnant. She came to him when she had leaves growing out her "Virginia." Oh my.... I guess it takes all kinds.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[billvon 2,380]

>How frustrating it must be attempting to save these folks from themselves.

Another story while we're at it -

Woman jumper from Germany showed up. She was current and had a German license; had about 40 jumps. She rented gear from us. At one point I gave her a DZ briefing and asked her if she was familiar with our rental gear. (standard system, BOC throwout.) She said yes. I asked her to demonstrate emergency procedures and she did fine.

She goes up and jumps. At pull time, she pulls the PC and holds on. Her main doesn't deploy. She lets go to pull the reserve. She gets two canopies out and lands both.

Afterwards I asked her what had happened. She said that she was used to a ripcord, but figured if she just read the SIM it would tell her how to use a throwout. Well, the SIM at that time (1997 or so) didn't actually say you had to let go of the PC. An example of someone who actually made an effort to educate herself and still got it wrong.

[Phillbo 11]

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I've been paying acute attention to any thread I can find discussing the Skyhook and everything I've seen or heard makes me think it's a great innovation. I admire the effort and time taken to develop it.

That said:

There's a full page ad for Skyhook on page 46 of the Oct Parachutist that rubs me wrong. It compares EP's with and without Skyhook. On the left half of the page is the "Non-Skyhook Cutaway Procedure"

1. Cutaway
2. Get Stable or Not
3. Pull Reserve Handle
4. Reserve Deploying

On the right half of the page: The Skyhook procedure

1. Cutaway
2. Smile

I'm annoyed that the Skyhook procedure omits pulling the reserve handle.

If your learning your EP's from a magazine add your already in trouble.

[diablopilot 2]

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I'm annoyed that the Skyhook procedure omits pulling the reserve handle.

That and it implies that breakaways are safe as low as 100 agl.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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if someone saw that and assumed they didnt have to pull silver / (or reserve pillow) anymore, they are too dumb to be jumping. .

One could argue the SkyHook was created to ALLOW such people to jump, and as an instructor, and being in gear sales for quite a few years, I'll let you know I've seen more than a few of that type.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billbooth 10]

Sorry I didn't answer this thread earlier. I just got back from a long overseas trip, and haven't even seen the Parachutist ad yet. From what I hear, the ad I approved, which was full of text, was cut way down by my marketing people. Of course I would never advocate scrapping your emergency procedures just because you have an RSL. (By the way, does every Cypres ad include emergency procedure instruction such as: "You still should pull your reserve ripcord, even though you jump with an AAD." It was an ad. Would you seriously prefer all parachuting ads to read, "Please buy my rig...even though it won't work."? That said, if this ad runs again, I will add a disclaimer of some sort. However. it hard to tell anyone not to alter their emergeny procedure, when you don't know what particular emergency procedure they were taught. For instance, I, (CAUTION: This is my personal opinion, and should not be taken as instruction by anyone) would never (depending on altitude) have my hand on a reserve ripcord handle, or even be looking at it, when I cutaway. Two reasons: 1. I want to be sure that both risers leave before I pull the reserve ripcord. 2. I want to be "stable" enough (especially if I was just spinning on my back) to safely deploy my last canopy...and to get stable as quickly as possible I will need my eyes on the horizon to determine "which way is up", and I will need both arms outstreched to position my body.

[Ron 7]

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In this time, I have witnessed probably 25 (or more) different instructors on hundreds of Tandems and AFF's. This includes their dirt dives, in plane briefings etc.

You lose this one, you WATCHED AFF "I's" She IS an AFF "I" and by defult knows mouch more about teaching skydiving than you.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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Yeah, thank god. And you don't come rushing over here...we have enough pompous, egotistical instructors floating around...certainly don't need another.

Nice personal Attack!!!! Mods?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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I agree with your thoughts to some extent but my original point stands: Why did they include pulling silver as a non-Skyhook necessity and why didn't they include it as a Skyhook necessity.

You didn't seem to read my take on it.

It was an AD, not an instructional booklet or pamplet.

I know several people that had an RSL and after a cutaway told me that they were going for the Reserve when they noticed they already had a reserve open.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[NewGuy2005 51]

This thread indicates to me that there is an over abundance of leisure time among DZ.com readers. Could someone send some my way?

Ken

[billvon 2,380]

>we have enough pompous, egotistical instructors floating around...
>certainly don't need another.

Enough. If you can't discuss the issue, don't discuss it at all.

[riddler 0]

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This thread indicates to me that there is an over abundance of leisure time among DZ.com readers. Could someone send some my way?

Dude - you spent like two minutes writing that up. Get back to work!!

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[NewGuy2005 51]

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This thread indicates to me that there is an over abundance of leisure time among DZ.com readers. Could someone send some my way?

Dude - you spent like two minutes writing that up. Get back to work!!

Yes sir. Sorry about that.

[labrys 0]

The quote you have posted wasn't a response to your take on the ad. I thought your observation was excellent, The post I was responding to was not yours

Owned by Remi #?

[tso-d_chris 0]

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ALWAYS stick to your standard EPs, but in case you have a skyhookRSL... that device will probably beat you to it, still go for silver though, cause that's your EP..

Any RSL is likely to beat you on the reserve deployment. Still best to go for silver yourself.

For Great Deals on Gear

[tso-d_chris 0]

Beat me to it.

For Great Deals on Gear

[tso-d_chris 0]

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We hire attorneys; loss prevention experts, technical writers and take out publication errors and omissions insurance to make sure the ads are perfect legally? Oh and by the way, that will be an extra $500 a rig to cover the cost!

If running responsible advertisements in the official publication of USPA that do not advocate proper emergency procedures being changed adds $500 per rig, RWS has a management problem.

(Implying a weak excuse for the ad, not a management problem)

For Great Deals on Gear

[diablopilot 2]

BTW Bill, I like the ad, as well as the device, it's just that dumb and dumber people keep showing up in the sport and we're not weeding them out in the instructional process.

Remember the couple riggers in the North East that did SkyHook Breakaways below 400-500 ft agl, but had their reserves packed slider off? It wasn't long before I heard newer jumpers telling me (I was in gear sales at the time) that the SkyHook was great because you could cutaway lower.

Dumb people will amaze you when you think you've seen everything.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.