difference between HP canopies and everything else

[Scrumpot 1]

I've always been partial (and have myself) the "old" icarus team colors. All neon green with bby (purple) ribs.

Hey, thanks for the levity! ...For understanding, and not taking offense at any "just student" type comments. If I may, let me apologize here too if that in any way seemed condescending. Which it in no way was meant to be. We've all had to "be there" at one time or another.

Except of course for those of us who just came out EXACTLY LIKE THIS!

Hey, I at least really LIKE your inquisitive nature! Keep on asking, and keep on LIVING!
Good luck on nailing down that "A" this weekend.
Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[hexadecimal 0]

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It would be like me putting you in a shifter kart if you have never driven any type of race car..
Some could do it.. Most cant..

Far worse... unless you put them in the kart when it was already doing 80+ mph, 30 feet or so from a series of highly technical turns with walls on both sides.

[Scrumpot 1]

Ooh, man... how do you guys do that?

Write something in ONE SENTENCE that took me a paragraph (or 2 ) to portray!!

Someday, I'm gonna have to corner one of you guys, sit down and take a few lessons on just how to do that. ...To think that Mark could even actually "see" that vein that was popping out of my neck (which I have to admit it was ), well, all I can say is: WOW!

And I've jsut really come back on here after about (what I thought was) a good 2-3 months "rest"!

HA!
Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Jackpunx 0]

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It would be like me putting you in a shifter kart if you have never driven any type of race car..
Some could do it.. Most cant..

Far worse... unless you put them in the kart when it was already doing 80+ mph, 30 feet or so from a series of highly technical turns with walls on both sides.

so you jump one too
Seems like all you guys are getting to jump the sub 100 canopy's ..
I orderd the purple one

all kidding aside.. I totally get your analagy (sp?)..

[Jackpunx 0]

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I've always been partial (and have myself) the "old" icarus team colors. All neon green with bby (purple) ribs.

Hey, thanks for the levity! ...For understanding, and not taking offense at any "just student" type comments. If I may, let me apologize here too if that in any way seemed condescending. Which it in no way was meant to be. We've all had to "be there" at one time or another.

Except of course for those of us who just came out EXACTLY LIKE THIS!

Hey, I at least really LIKE your inquisitive nature! Keep on asking, and keep on LIVING!
Good luck on nailing down that "A" this weekend.
Blues,
-Grant

Grant,
seriously,,thanks for all the usfull info.... I got tons of questions.. just not sure Im ready for the answers..lOl
I'll keep you posted on my progression and when I go to pick up my new canopy Im saying you were my instructor and you said it was ok
Mark

[rbanfield 0]

When I read the post on jumping the wrong rig I wondered the same thing. That is, would a student (or me with 40 jumps weighing in at 195 lbs) be able to land a nylon napkin. How about I work my way through and someone tell me where I screw up.

1. I deploy and see this tiny thing over my head. Let's assume I dont deploy into spinning line twists which I would immediately cut from anyway. Let's also assume I dont think this is some malfunction I haven't heard of before where only half of the parachute opens up.
2. I have seen these crazy bastards with the small parachutes before and know that I have to be very gentle. I've seen when they flare they only bring the toggles down to about shoulder level. So let's try one of those... bring both toggles down very very slowly until I'm riding horizontally.

3. I've heard that you can turn your parachute just by leaning in the harness. So I am going to try to do that before I try to turn by pulling on a toggle. Though I know most loosen the cheststrap also, I'm not pressing my luck. I'm also not collapsing the slider. If I can't turn this thing by leaning in the harness, then I'm going to try some toggle turns by pulling down very slowly.

4. I would figure that I have doubled my speed by going to this small parachute, so my normal altitude areas are going to be divided in half. Because I don't want to try any low turns, I am going to do a straight in approach from a long ways back. So at 400-500 feet, I'm at the end of the landing area ready to land into the wind on a straight in approach (I know this may not work for dropzones with a small landing area, but the one at ZHills is pretty big).

5. When landing have the toggles at the top of my head, and when ready to flare, pull the toggles to shoulder level (or whereever the proper flare point was in step 2). Ride out the landing for as long as I can and for the love of God keep these toggles even, even if I am about to fall.

6. Do another jump with this parachute, this time swooping the pond. Practice makes perfect, and winners never quit. Okay... just kidding here.

So how many times did I manage to kill myself?

[marks 0]

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When I read the post on jumping the wrong rig I wondered the same thing. That is, would a student (or me with 40 jumps weighing in at 195 lbs) be able to land a nylon napkin. How about I work my way through and someone tell me where I screw up.

1. I deploy and see this tiny thing over my head. Let's assume I dont deploy into spinning line twists which I would immediately cut from anyway. Let's also assume I dont think this is some malfunction I haven't heard of before where only half of the parachute opens up.
2. I have seen these crazy bastards with the small parachutes before and know that I have to be very gentle. I've seen when they flare they only bring the toggles down to about shoulder level. So let's try one of those... bring both toggles down very very slowly until I'm riding horizontally.

3. I've heard that you can turn your parachute just by leaning in the harness. So I am going to try to do that before I try to turn by pulling on a toggle. Though I know most loosen the cheststrap also, I'm not pressing my luck. I'm also not collapsing the slider. If I can't turn this thing by leaning in the harness, then I'm going to try some toggle turns by pulling down very slowly.

4. I would figure that I have doubled my speed by going to this small parachute, so my normal altitude areas are going to be divided in half. Because I don't want to try any low turns, I am going to do a straight in approach from a long ways back. So at 400-500 feet, I'm at the end of the landing area ready to land into the wind on a straight in approach (I know this may not work for dropzones with a small landing area, but the one at ZHills is pretty big).

5. When landing have the toggles at the top of my head, and when ready to flare, pull the toggles to shoulder level (or whereever the proper flare point was in step 2). Ride out the landing for as long as I can and for the love of God keep these toggles even, even if I am about to fall.

6. Do another jump with this parachute, this time swooping the pond. Practice makes perfect, and winners never quit. Okay... just kidding here.

So how many times did I manage to kill myself?

lets assume you were under canopy at 3000 ft, as soon as you were done with 1-4 you would be at 800 ft or less.

assuming you didn't run into anyone in the process because you were paying so much attention in to learning to fly this canopy you probably are now landing off at this point...

did you kill yourself? i hope not.

[Samurai136 0]

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OK. If someone with 22 jumps who weighs 180 pounds opens uenxpectedly under a canopy that says "VELOCITY 96" in big letters under it, then I agree they should cut it away. That never happens in the real world, so it's more a thought exercise than a useful thing to talk about.

Actually, it does happen in the real world. The low jump number skydiver accidently picked up the wrong rig (which happened to look just like the DZ student/ rental gear.)

I forget if it was a VX or a Velocity, anyway, the skydiver made a controlability check, and decided he didn't like the speed generated from heading changes. He chose to take an off DZ landing into the wind, flared and PLF'd the landing. No injuries.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[dragon2 0]

I sometimes jump other people's rigs. I usually jump a 135 or 120. If I'm stupid enough to grab a rig that has the wrong canopy in it (the rigs all look alike), it can be anything up (down?) to a velo 90. If I don't know what canopy it is I was told to chop instantly and go for the reserve (PD 126 or PD 113) because even a slight assymetrical flare would turn me into the ground.

Dunno, I can land a vengeance 120 fine, I think I'd try the mystery canopy out for a bit if I had the altitude. If the opening didn't scare me first (I often jump birdman so a velo or even a small vengeance wouldn't be a good idea)

I know I can land a PD113 just fine, might be the smarter choice to land Don't really fancy a crash course in landing a velocity

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[darkwing 4]

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... If I don't know what canopy it is I was told to chop instantly and go for the reserve (PD 126 or PD 113) because even a slight assymetrical flare would turn me into the ground...]

I think this advice is insane. Others may or may not share my opinion.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[dragon2 0]

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... If I don't know what canopy it is I was told to chop instantly and go for the reserve (PD 126 or PD 113) because even a slight assymetrical flare would turn me into the ground...]

I think this advice is insane. Others may or may not share my opinion.

Well I got this advice a couple hunderd jumps ago, when I didn't have any hp experience whatsoever (my own main still is a spectre 135), and an unexpected velo 84 (then the smallest he had) might be a bit much. Like I said, now I might try flying it first...
I of course check the rig real good so I can avoid this situation in the first place

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Remster 24]

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Actually, it does happen in the real world.

I know of another instance of a very junior jumper from my old home DZ who picked up the wrong rig while in ZHills. I dont remember the sizes of the caopies, but he had less the 100 jumps, and weighed something like 180, and ended up with a small x-braced (maybe a tad over 100 sqft). He landed it. Not very gracefully, but he walk away from it.

Was he smart? Hell no. Really, you must ask yourself if a person who doenst notice that the rig they are picking is less then 1/2 the size and weight of the one you jumped just 1 hour ago....

This really is a easy situation to prevent: take care and pay attention to your gear.

Remster

[ccowden 0]

Exactly right. Holy shit, I am agreeing with Mark!

Even if you opened at 5,000 feet, you would not have enough timeto do all these tests AND fly back to the dz, enter a safe pattern and land where you wanted to. And chances are, you wouldn't be at 5,000 feet. Probably more like 3,500 feet, which is where I am on a normal basis. At that altitude, I pretty much have to immediately begin my flight back to the landing area and start accessing the pattern, traffic, conditions and situation. And I have 2,800 jumps and about 1,000 on this type of canopy.

You may have time to do a controllability check, but certainly not enough time to do enought tests to assess that you can fly and land this canopy safely. Let alone the fact that during this time you still need to be getting back to the landing area safely from your opening spot amongst the other traffic.

[Dolph 0]

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1. I deploy and see this tiny thing over my head. Let's assume I dont deploy into spinning line twists which I would immediately cut from anyway. Let's also assume I dont think this is some malfunction I haven't heard of before where only half of the parachute opens up.

Ok

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2. I have seen these crazy bastards with the small parachutes before and know that I have to be very gentle. I've seen when they flare they only bring the toggles down to about shoulder level. So let's try one of those... bring both toggles down very very slowly until I'm riding horizontally.

I think you'll have a problem that needs to be dealt with at this point. A slight asymmetric position under your normal canopy is no big deal - it will at most turn a little. The same position under a pocket rocket elliptical is likely to make ya turn as much as if you pull a toggle down half way on your normal canopy. And the turn itself may cause further weight shifting, increasing the turn rate and rate of descent. But, I gather it's possible to manage this with quick thinking and quick, gentle reactions.

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3. I've heard that you can turn your parachute just by leaning in the harness. So I am going to try to do that before I try to turn by pulling on a toggle. Though I know most loosen the cheststrap also, I'm not pressing my luck. I'm also not collapsing the slider. If I can't turn this thing by leaning in the harness, then I'm going to try some toggle turns by pulling down very slowly.

Playing along: it sounds like a reasonable approach. Most likely you've already experienced the effects of a harness turn, quite inadvartently. They can be pretty scary if you're not used to it. You may be thinking "WTF is wrong with this canopy? It keeps turning and I ain't doing nada!". I know my first jump on a sub 100 Stiletto (1.6 WL, so not extremely radical or anything) was like that just after opening. I'd gone from a square Safire-109 and still the twitchyness of the Stiletto made me think "malfunction".

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4. I would figure that I have doubled my speed by going to this small parachute, so my normal altitude areas are going to be divided in half.

You may have an intellectual understanding of the increase in vertical and horisontal velocity. Your senses would tell you something entirely different I suspect. It'd require pretty good self control to override your sensory apparatus at this point.

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5. When landing have the toggles at the top of my head, and when ready to flare, pull the toggles to shoulder level (or whereever the proper flare point was in step 2). Ride out the landing for as long as I can and for the love of God keep these toggles even, even if I am about to fall.

At this point I think it's likely that your judgment of height and speed are going to be off the mark. You may time the flare perfectly, but more than likely you will be either too high or too low. A very small (compared to your normal canopy) input on the toggles will have a big effect. Too little and you pound in. Too much and you take off. Then there's the symmetry of the flare - a little off and you're turning yourself into the ground at high speed.

I'd chop it as the reserve is likely to be more docile and landing it would increase my chances of survival.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

A 21 cell cross-braced canopy comes in a lot steeper than you'd expect on a straight in approach and while the cross-braced canopy is an ultra efficient wing with a very powerful flare, would a novice be able to know when to flare on such a steep approach? Maybe ... maybe not ... so it's a good idea NOT to even contemplate trying to land one of these pocket rockets if you ever find yourself in that scenario.

Think of it like this ... skydiving canopies can be like the various cars on the road. A tandem canopy is like a big bus or a truck. Student canopies are like small trucks. The average skydiving canopy is like a Honda Civic and a traditional 9 cell high performance canopy (when flown the way it should be flown by inducing a speed generating turn before leveling out) is like driving a Corvette. Now a cross-braced canopy (flown the way it should be flown by inducing speed before the swoop) is like a Ferrari with the best swoopers in the world who jump revolutionary canopies with HMA lines and RDS systems are like race car drivers of the world (Formula One/Indy Cart/Nascar).

Can a novice survive a trip around the track in a race car? Maybe if they're careful, but one doesn't just get into a Formula One car without learning how to drive the less powerful cars first. So maybe you would survive an encounter flying a sub 100 high performance cross-braced canopy if you're careful. But things will be happening faster than you're used to, and instead of finding yourself in a "OMG this is fast" scenario, I think you're more likely not going to recognize how fast things are happening until you get low to the ground when it might be too late.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ccowden 0]

All agreed. However, your car analogy is a good one, but still isn't a fair comparison. If you got in a race car after only driving busses, you could still just back off the gas and bring it to a stop once you figured out it was too much. You are not afforded that luxury with a canopy.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'd chop it as the reserve is likely to be more docile and landing it would increase my chances of survival.

Hey - someone (directly) answered the question instead of just talking about how unqualified a newbie is to fly the main or just ignoring the hypothetical by saying "don't get in the situation". good deal

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Hey - someone (directly) answered the question instead of just talking about how unqualified a newbie is to fly the main or just ignoring the hypothetical by saying "don't get in the situation". good deal

Hmmm ... might I remind you that the original poster asked these questions in his first post:

"How different from a regular canopy is it.. If I had it over my head (im new) and I did a controllability check.. Would it react the same way as any other canopy other than it would be fast and smaller? if I came in for a conservative landing.. Would it react the same?"

So this opened up the flood gates for people to explain the differences in the canopies and their opinions that the newer jumpers should or shouldn't even consider landing one just naturally came out. What's so wrong with this? Or do we NOT tell the newbie why a canopy performs in a certain manner based on it's design characterisitcs and instead just tell them to chop and keep everything else a mystery to them?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ccowden 0]

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I'd chop it as the reserve is likely to be more docile and landing it would increase my chances of survival.

Hey - someone (directly) answered the question instead of just talking about how unqualified a newbie is to fly the main or just ignoring the hypothetical by saying "don't get in the situation". good deal

Hey- someone posted with absolutely nothing constructive to add. Right on!

[rbanfield 0]

Thanks for the very clear response Dolph! I definately agree with you that my distance of knowing when to flare would be very very off. I think were I in that situation that is the point I would be most likely to screw up. Naturally this is also one of the most important places not to screw up. In response to my not flaring high enough, I think I would also be tempted to try to punch out the flare by pulling too far down and end up stalling the damn thing out.

It is nice to hear the recommendation to cut away and pull out the reserve. In the original thread that this thread was a response to, more than a few people thought riding the main down would be the appropriate course of action since it is technically a good canopy. That is the reason I was curious as to the course of action to take. I would definately feel rather guilty not only taking some other dude's rig, but then cutting away his main! I guess it is better than trying to scrub the blood out though...

[Scrumpot 1]

The intended point of "that other thread", really, was to, (I think) basically RIDICULE the jumper for not realizing he had THE WRONG RIG in the 1st place.

This thread took that one just a little bit further, and asked for instead an exploration of the "what if" scenario debate. Inviting a more specific, and perhaps little deeper consideration.

Thus, 2 very different strings of "conversation".

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Adi 0]

Hey Mark,
I was the guy packing for you the other day. I think that everyone else has pretty much answered your questions. But I just wanted to say well done for being heads up enough to check your own gear.
I always try and make sure people check they have the correct rig if im packing some similar ones. I had a guy pick up my own canopy (velo 103) when he was renting gear and was supposed to be downsizing to a pilot 210! Fortunatly I noticed my rig was missing and we got him to ride the plane down!

[Jackpunx 0]

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Hey Mark,
I was the guy packing for you the other day. I think that everyone else has pretty much answered your questions. But I just wanted to say well done for being heads up enough to check your own gear.
I always try and make sure people check they have the correct rig if im packing some similar ones. I had a guy pick up my own canopy (velo 103) when he was renting gear and was supposed to be downsizing to a pilot 210! Fortunatly I noticed my rig was missing and we got him to ride the plane down!

ADI,
Good to see you on here..
I gave it some thought.. and I could see it happening to someone that was not carefull.
Thanks for hooking me up last weekend.. I'll see you again this weekend

[kelpdiver 2]

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OK. If someone with 22 jumps who weighs 180 pounds opens uenxpectedly under a canopy that says "VELOCITY 96" in big letters under it, then I agree they should cut it away. That never happens in the real world, so it's more a thought exercise than a useful thing to talk about.

Actually, it does happen in the real world.

Not the part where it says "VELO 96" in big letters.

I've never jumped sub 200s and I've had jumps where I look up and think - does this seem a bit small?

[Elisha 1]

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OK. If someone with 22 jumps who weighs 180 pounds opens uenxpectedly under a canopy that says "VELOCITY 96" in big letters under it, then I agree they should cut it away. That never happens in the real world, so it's more a thought exercise than a useful thing to talk about.

Actually, it does happen in the real world.

Not the part where it says "VELO 96" in big letters.

I've never jumped sub 200s and I've had jumps where I look up and think - does this seem a bit small?

That's just because you're a fa.....nevermind.