BigSky 2 #1 January 10, 2006 First off I apologize if this is a dead horse, but I dont really know how to search for this because I am in no way trying to start a DZ. Here is the situation. A couple of jumpers and I live in a town about three hours from our DZ. We are looking for a way to make some jumps here and there without having to drive all that way. We have found a pilot who owns a 180 and is willing to take the door off and fly us. There is a small air strip out of town a ways that we can use. My question is, what else do we need to make this legal? The pilot is willing to fly us for gas and is not looking to profit off of this thing. He will fly us a couple of times a month and we will be very happy. We just dont want to get him in any trouble. Any advice from someone who has made something like this work would be very appreciated.“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkiD_PL8 0 #2 January 10, 2006 That is very cool, I am interested in hearing the answer to that as well. Let me add one more question to whoever can respond. Will the same rules apply to powered parachutes, and ultralight aircraft with 2 seats? Greenie in training. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,379 #3 January 10, 2006 >what else do we need to make this legal? 1. Explicit permission of the landowner 2. A NOTAM 3. A commercial rating for the pilot, if you pay him for flying you To get around 3), you have to _share_ expenses; that means that you pay for 1/2 the fuel/operating cost, the pilot pays for the other 1/2. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkiD_PL8 0 #4 January 10, 2006 I am guessing #1 would be the hardest to get. Most landowners would like to see proof of insurance and things like that right? The USPA insurance isn't good unless you are jumping at a USPA group member DZ is it? Greenie in training. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
altichick 0 #5 January 10, 2006 If your not jumping at a DZ I think it would be classed as a demo by the FAA and would require the relevant paperwork and approval... and a minimum of a C license.... http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/section9.htm http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/section9part105.htm 3 hours drive ain't so bad Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigSky 2 #6 January 10, 2006 Quote>what else do we need to make this legal? 1. Explicit permission of the landowner 2. A NOTAM 3. A commercial rating for the pilot, if you pay him for flying you To get around 3), you have to _share_ expenses; that means that you pay for 1/2 the fuel/operating cost, the pilot pays for the other 1/2. Thank you for the info. I dont know what it takes to get a NOTAM but I will research it. Do you know of any premade wavers for the land owner that I could get or should I have a attorney draw something up?“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkiD_PL8 0 #7 January 10, 2006 QuoteIf your not jumping at a DZ I think it would be classed as a demo by the FAA and would require the relevant paperwork and approval... and a minimum of a C license.... http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/section9.htm http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/section9part105.htm 3 hours drive ain't so bad Then how do you explain rantoul? Do they become a temporary DZ durring the boogie? It was my understanding that only demo's were demos, not every jump off of the dz. Greenie in training. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigSky 2 #8 January 10, 2006 Here is how the sim classifies a demo jump A demonstration jump, also called a display or exhibition jump, is a jump at a location other than an existing drop zone done for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators. One purpose of USPA is to promote successful demonstration jumps as part of an overall public relations program for the sport. That isnt what we are doing at all so I dont think demo jump applies“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #9 January 10, 2006 True it is not a Demo per say. but your not on a DZ and some FSDO's (Flight Standards District Office) do not care if it is a demo or not, they will still want 7711-2's submitted and 7711-1's issued to make the jump. Check the airframe and insure it is one certified for dropping skydivers. Check the local airport authority and get permission (in writing is best) to take off Jump and land there. Check with the FSDO and abide by what they want in the way of paper work and NOTAMS.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,379 #10 January 10, 2006 >Check the airframe and insure it is one certified for dropping >skydivers. This devolves to ensuring it is legal for flight with the door removed; many aircraft need to be placarded for such flight. If the seats are removed, then seatbelts must be installed and used. The pilot must have a certified parachute available. >and some FSDO's (Flight Standards District Office) do not care if it is > a demo or not, they will still want 7711-2's submitted and 7711-1's > issued to make the jump. Definitely true; depends on the FSDO. Filing a NOTAM 2 hours before the jump meets the letter of the law though, and may either work fine, work once (until they realize what you're doing and decide that you need the additional paperwork) or not work at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #11 January 10, 2006 QuoteThen how do you explain rantoul? Do they become a temporary DZ durring the boogie? Not sure about Rantoul, but some friends and I put on a small boogie at an off-dz location a few years ago. We contacted the USPA regional director for that area, gave him some information about the landing area (which was not on an airport) and he "blessed" it as a dz for the weekend. We also had to file a NOTAM (Notice To Airmen) with the FAA, which is supposed to let pilots know that there will be parachuting operations in the area during that time frame. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #12 January 10, 2006 QuoteThe pilot must have a certified parachute available. Could you cite the FAR, please? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #13 January 10, 2006 Thanks Bill, "Placarded" was the word I was looking for.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #14 January 10, 2006 QuoteIf your not jumping at a DZ I think it would be classed as a demo by the FAA and would require the relevant paperwork and approval... and a minimum of a C license.... http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/section9.htm http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/section9part105.htm 3 hours drive ain't so bad This is incorrect.For the most part the FAA could care less as long as you are not jumping over a heavily populated area or over a large crowd. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #15 January 10, 2006 Let me switch to Spanish so that only you and I will understand: Es un jumpo bandito."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 14 #16 January 11, 2006 Powered Parachutes and Ultralights are not legal jump craft. The only purpose to fly the dual passanger models of those planes is for flight instruction accourding to the FAA. They are not for commercial flights nor are they for sight seeing or jumping. Since you actually have to have an instructors rating to fly the 2 seater versions accourding to a few UL pilots I've talked to, the FAA can yank the pilots rating over it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #17 January 11, 2006 QuoteWe also had to file a NOTAM (Notice To Airmen) with the FAA, which is supposed to let pilots know that there will be parachuting operations in the area during that time frame. So the pilots can fail to listen to / read them, then fly directly over your landing area at 1,000 feet. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
michaelmullins 77 #18 January 11, 2006 QuoteFirst off I apologize if this is a dead horse, but I dont really know how to search for this because I am in no way trying to start a DZ. Here is the situation. A couple of jumpers and I live in a town about three hours from our DZ. We are looking for a way to make some jumps here and there without having to drive all that way. We have found a pilot who owns a 180 and is willing to take the door off and fly us. There is a small air strip out of town a ways that we can use. My question is, what else do we need to make this legal? The pilot is willing to fly us for gas and is not looking to profit off of this thing. He will fly us a couple of times a month and we will be very happy. We just dont want to get him in any trouble. Any advice from someone who has made something like this work would be very appreciated. You are getting some bad info. Here is really what you need to do: First, no NOTAMS are required to be filed anymore. What you need to do is contact the Air Traffic Control facility that owns the airspace at your exit altitude. This will be a an Air Route Traffic Control Center ("Center") or an Approach Control facility ("Approach"). You need to inform them (not ask their permission) of the jumping by giving them the information listed in FAR 105.15. This FAR is in the Skydivers Information Manual and you can get it by clicking on: http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/section9part105.htm#10515 The pilot will also need to contact the ATC facility 5 minutes before the jump for a "traffic advisory". This is not asking for "permission" to release the jumpers although many ATC facilities erroneusly think it is. Knowing exactly what to put on this form and knowing how to talk to the appropriate facility can be intimidating for the uninitiated. When you decide to actually do this, if you will contact me I will fill out the info for you and call the facility so that you will have no problems initially and in future notifications. Do NOT contact the FSDO and ask them for permission to jump at the airport. Do contact the "airport management" and get their permission, oral is fine. It is NOT a demo if the purpose is simply to jump at the airport and you are not advertising an "air show" or "display jumps", or "demonstration jumps" to the general public. In reality the place you jump will become a DZ just like any other DZ. Again, you do NOT need permission from the FSDO, you do not need to talk to the FSDO, do NOT talk to the FSDO. The only time that you need their permission is for jumps over a congested area of a city or town or for an "airshow". Jumps at an aiport, or some farmers field, are just like jumps at any DZ. If the "180" you describe is a Cessna 180 then it is on the list of aircraft approved for flight with door removed. The aircraft owner, or pilot, will need to go to the FSDO and get a form called "Authorization for Flight with Door Removed". This form will list the limitations that the pilot must follow with the door removed. Or you can simply jump the aircraft with the door on ( not recommended). Tell the FSDO, if they ask, that you are getting the approval to use at some time in the future. Do not discuss the details of where you may jump with them. The FSDO often do not know their own rules and you will simply open the door to them telling you that you need their permission to jump, which is NOT true. If you do decide to jump it with the door on, have the pilot slow the aircraft as much as possible, open the window, then open the door and jump out. It is not easy. If you are USPA Members you will need to comply with the BSR's regardless of where you jump. The one that you may find the hardest to comply with in this situation is BSR 2.1 H 3: Manned ground-to-air communications (e.g., radios, panels, smoke, lights) are to be present on the drop zone during skydiving operations. [NW] You may need to take an extra person along to meet this requirement. As long as you comply with the USPA BSR's your USPA liability insurance is valid (regardless of where you jump, as long as it is not a demo). If you are paying any money for the jump is excess of what will cover the direct operating expense of the aircraft (fuel and oil) the pilot will need to have a Commercial Pilot License and the aircraft will need a current 100 hour inspection. If not, a Private Pilot and Annual Inspection will suffice. Mike Mullins USPA National Director Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #19 January 11, 2006 Mike, I do not dispute your right in what your writing. But so many FSDO's do not read the rules that way and the FAA's FSDO hand book (not law but how to work in the FAA "law") contradicts so many of the points you make. So wouldn'd it be easier (legal requirment or not) to work with the FSDO and at least let them "think" they are "in charge"? Then work with them to come around to the right way? I have over a couple of years been able to educate the Nashville FSDO in regards to skydiving and Demonstration Jumping (I think for our areas betterment). This has helped to foster a good relationship and now the FSDO tends to call me and ask for my opinion, where as before he would tell some one "no" as his standard answer to any skydive not on a DZ he was familiar with. True story. Several jumpers near Ft. Campbell like to hit a fellows Back yard (a large piece of property)after the day at the DZ and then BBQ, they jump in and start to party. A pilot complained and the FSDO was getting ready to pursue legal action by trying to find the Jump Pilot and Jumpers. He didn't know who to talk to for the jumpers, so he called me (he could find the pilot pretty easy it appears, but had not contacted him yet). We talked over lunch and that was the end of it. I took a SIM and the FAR's (I have the whole collection but only took the part 105 book) and a bit of humble pie (that I didn't need nor have to use). Robert Cope and I had a good talk and the jumpers still jump when they can. The whole talk happened with out their knowledge and I only talked to one well after the fact as a funny conversation starter.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
michaelmullins 77 #20 January 11, 2006 QuoteMike, I do not dispute your right in what your writing. But so many FSDO's do not read the rules that way and the FAA's FSDO hand book (not law but how to work in the FAA "law") contradicts so many of the points you make. So wouldn'd it be easier (legal requirment or not) to work with the FSDO and at least let them "think" they are "in charge"? Then work with them to come around to the right way? I have over a couple of years been able to educate the Nashville FSDO in regards to skydiving and Demonstration Jumping (I think for our areas betterment). This has helped to foster a good relationship and now the FSDO tends to call me and ask for my opinion, where as before he would tell some one "no" as his standard answer to any skydive not on a DZ he was familiar with. True story. Several jumpers near Ft. Campbell like to hit a fellows Back yard (a large piece of property)after the day at the DZ and then BBQ, they jump in and start to party. A pilot complained and the FSDO was getting ready to pursue legal action by trying to find the Jump Pilot and Jumpers. He didn't know who to talk to for the jumpers, so he called me (he could find the pilot pretty easy it appears, but had not contacted him yet). We talked over lunch and that was the end of it. I took a SIM and the FAR's (I have the whole collection but only took the part 105 book) and a bit of humble pie (that I didn't need nor have to use). Robert Cope and I had a good talk and the jumpers still jump when they can. The whole talk happened with out their knowledge and I only talked to one well after the fact as a funny conversation starter. By all means contact the FSDO when you need to. Don't contact them, waste their time and yours, when you do not need to. In this case there is no legal or moral requirement to contact them and you are only asking for red tape if you do. The process of educating them can ofter result in professional embarrassment to them when higher ups (DC) need to point out the errors of their ways. I deal with FSDO on many occassions, always treat them with respect and strive to have a good working relationship with them. For the most part they are good people trying to do their job. However, when I do not need to bother them, I don't. Follow the regs, talk to the FSDO when you need to, and don't bother them when you don't. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
poppenhager 1 #21 January 11, 2006 They are called outlaw jumps and a lot more fun.We have all done them (old timers).If someone offers me a jump from a 180 for gas I'll do it anytime! Mike is right (always tell ATC your intentions,don't ask) It's an option for the pilot to were a parachute no longer a rule.Be careful up there.POP D47 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #22 January 11, 2006 hmmmmm, 'Es un salto bandido' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #23 January 11, 2006 I think the only part I will disagree with is the part about them striving to do their jobs.I have seen more of just say no so they don't have to do their jobs.Just look at Perris and their jet for instance. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
altichick 0 #24 January 11, 2006 QuoteIf your not jumping at a DZ I think it would be classed as a demo by the FAA... 3 hours drive ain't so bad My bad!! I'd be interested to hear if you manage to do it and if it's as easy as it seems. Good luck! Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #25 January 11, 2006 I do it all the time.Dublin Boogie,Mountain Boogie,Destin Beach Jumps.I think he lives in Montana.God only knows where the closest FAA office is. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
