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Are there still any DZ/ aircraft operators who insist their pilots don't wear parachutes's

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A little while ago I came across a DZ/aircraft operator who insisted his pilots NOT wear parachutes.:S

Hearing the young pilots complain about this reminded me of WW1 in the British camp where the pilots weren't issued parachutes cause they were expected to do everything to save the plane even go down with it.

Anyway this modern version expected his pilots to land the plane not exit it.
This was at a well known DZ . Seeing these pilots without rigs made me more than a bit nervous for them. Not long previously one of these aircraft had gone in with the pilot only getting out at the last moment. Apparently his wife had insisted he wear a parachute after a premonition.

Folk lore or truth??

Should an aircraft ever be valued above the safety of its pilots?

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in reply to "i thought it was a requirement to wear an emergency rig if you have jumpers aboard. am I wrong? "
........

Me too. this operator made his own rules ...and enforced them by pointing to the door.
:S

Seeing skydiver drivers with rigs on usually makes me feel much better about their degreee of common sense.

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thought it was a requirement to wear an emergency rig if you have jumpers aboard



I have heard that it depends on how far the Pilot will be from the OPen Door.

If the Pilot will be with-in X Feet of the Door, they are required to wear a Bail-out Rig.

That would explain why You always see Cessna Pilots with one and rarely see Otter Pilots with one.

I am sure someone will correct me if this is wrong.

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I thought it was a requirement to wear an emergency rig if you have jumpers aboard. Am I wrong?



THERE IS NO FAR requiring the pilot to wear a parachute or have one available during jump operations. Doesn't matter how big or small the aircraft is, how far the pilot is from the door, whether there is a bulkhead between cockpit and cabin.

Sometimes the STC for a jump door will specify that the pilot must wear a parachute, but the STCs mostly deal with how the door is made, installed, and operated. Some STCs are silent with regard to whether the pilot should wear a parachute, and that means it's pilot/operator choice.

Pilots (and other occupants) must wear parachutes during aerobatic maneuvers. Aerobatic maneuvers are usually defined as flight attitudes not necessary for normal flight. Mike Mullins' normal descent to the surface has been litigated and found to be normal for jump operations.

If a parachute is available to the pilot for emergency use, it must be in date.
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What's legal and what's safe are not necessarily the same thing.

I am not prohibited from wearing a parachute when flying jumpers, so I do. The straps are snug, and I'm ready to go skydiving if I need to.

I have had a 182 pilot tell me he'd buckle the harness straps if he needed to, but otherwise he would rather be comfortable, just use his parachute for a back cushion.

I have yet to see an Otter pilot wear a parachute. The few King Air pilots I know do not wear a parachute either. This in spite of a number of tail strikes (mostly King Air), a wing strike (Deland), and a wheel/tail strike (? I don't recall the details, Birdman/Perris).

In a fatal accident several years ago in Australia, the Caravan pilot survived only because he was already wearing a parachute when an accidental deployment in the door resulted in loss of aircraft control.

Mark

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I have yet to see an Otter pilot wear a parachute.



I know at least one that does. Or, at least, he has a parachute with him in the Otter; I don't know if he actually wears it while flying.

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In a fatal accident several years ago in Australia, the Caravan pilot survived only because he was already wearing a parachute when an accidental deployment in the door resulted in loss of aircraft control.



A loss of aircraft control is a very nice way of saying the airplane had no tail left. And despite the fact that the pilot was wearing a bailout rig, by the time he managed to get out he was under a grand.

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Remind me to never fly with that guy.



Wait! There's more! He also told me that since it was such a hot day, I could open the door at 1000 feet, so we could be cooler on the rest of the climb to 11K!

Mark



Was it a roll-up door or a Snohomish door? And would having the door exceed the door-open speed?

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

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Was it a roll-up door or a Snohomish door? And would having the door exceed the door-open speed?



It was a typical hinged-at-the-top inflight door. I don't think we would have exceeded the door-open speed. The real problem would have been climb performance.

Mark

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In a fatal accident several years ago in Australia, the Caravan pilot survived only because he was already wearing a parachute when an accidental deployment in the door resulted in loss of aircraft control.



A loss of aircraft control is a very nice way of saying the airplane had no tail left. And despite the fact that the pilot was wearing a bailout rig, by the time he managed to get out he was under a grand.



He was also a very experienced skydiver (1000+ jumps). As I recall, deployment was pretty much throwing the pc out the door at 500' hoping his body would follow more or less unharmed (which it did).

nothing to see here

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182s have doors that open upwards towards the wing.
During climb there should be no reason for the max door open speed to be reached or exceeded. It will however reduce climb performance.

I was under the impression that if an aircraft door was to be opened in flight, all occupants must be wearing a parachute.
I fly a twin jump aircraft and to be honest, there isnt enough room between the back of the seat and the yolk to fit me and a rig.
When I flew 182s, I would always wear a rig.
In a situation where a pilot might want to get out of an aircraft I'd definitely rate my chances higer in the 182. In fact, I dont think I'd have any chance of getting out of the twin in a "tails been ripped off" situation.

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I was under the impression that if an aircraft door was to be opened in flight, all occupants must be wearing a parachute.



You are not alone in having that impression, but there is no FAR requiring it. Doesn't matter how many doors, how many engines, how big the cabin, how far from door to pilot, or intentions of the occupants. If there were such an FAR, every Cub pilot in the world would be in violation.

Some time just for fun, you and a friend should take up a 152 and experiment with using the doors as a substitute for the rudder.;)

Mark

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I've heard the same "DZ-lore" about "distance from the door" or a "bulkhead between the door and cockpit" and all... but have experienced pretty much the same things here as most others have posted. I've never seen an Otter Pilot actually wear a bailout rig and most of the time there is never even one on-board an Otter for him or her to put on... although, I've occasionally seen a DZ with a bailout rig on the floor, jamed between the seats and looking rather "stepped on", in a Otter. Now on a Cessna (206, 182, 172, etc.) I've never seen a pilot not wear one... as one DZO that operates both a 206 and an Otter said to me, he has a buddy who unassed himself from two C206s after someone's trash came out and took off the tail. I suppose he just figures that with the Otter, he'd just land it off field or make it back to the runway after getting all the jumpers out and that if something bad enough happened to make him want to get out (i.e. wing falls off, both engines burst into flames after meteor strike, etc), he wouldn't make it to the door before the crash... leaving from the pilot's door with #1 still turning wouldn't be an option, but it would be quick... :P... then there's the left gear... :S... anyway, same guy landed an Otter after a mid-air with a helicopter... helicopter crashed. Anyway, I jumped at a King Air DZ for awhile where they required their pilots to wear a bail-out rig. If I was a pilot, I don't know if I'd want to work at a place where I was expressly denied from wearing a bailout rig, especially on a Cessna, but maybe this DZ in question wasn't a Cessna operation.

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In the UK I have been in several 206s and a 182, some with roller/fabric doors and some without anything.

I have never seen a pilot wear a bail out rig in these aircraft.



Thrillseekers, them limey's! :)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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