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YISkyDive

What is the point of USPA?

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I just hope that some of the stuff that I said will at least be looked at by some people that could make things roll. But knowing my jump numbers, importance in the sport(lack there of) and other facts about low JN low EXP. its pointless to consider my thoughts get heard let a lone matter.



If you're a member, your views and thoughts are just as important as those of someone with 10000 jumps and 20 years in the sport.

You don't have to go to a board meeting to express them. Email or call your regional director. Email the S&T committee. They will listen. That's what they agreed to do when they took on the position.

Additionally, be sure to vote in the next BOD election. Few members bother to; your vote is worth a lot more than you might think.

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So from your post this is what you dislike about the ISP...
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I personally don't like the ISP not because its a multiprogram training tool ( I like that a lot) but from at least one DZ that I looked at my personal belief is that it was too drawn out and it was taking too much money. On a 7 level AFF program it takes students long enough to get jumped. At least in some parts of the country with constant winds and no ability to waiver becuase it would be unsafe for the student.



So this and the the fact we don't have better stats on whether we produce safer students are your dislikes?

IMO we turn out 10X a better skydiver now than we did 10 years ago.(just my view of the 2 DZ's I've worked at during that time) Within the ISP is more training, more background, AND more canopy control is covered. Of course this is only true if the DZ is following the levels AND providing the proper instruction. It sounds like you might have a wind/ lack of Instructor problem at the dz you jump at.(In reference to how long it takes to complete) I've seen people get through all 25 levels in 2 weeks, but that dz had a ton of instructors.

I've seen a lot of our students with less than 100 jumps be better jumpers in terms of flying, knowledge, and altitude awareness than some people I've met with hundreds of jumps. I do feel that is because they have a better base of instruction than just 7 jumps......

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mm k, ... Seeing some coments about the USPA being about people out to make money, I just gotta say, so what. I'm happy that the DZO's get to make a little money, works for me.. If they stop making money, guess what, they will try to make money off of us which = much more expensive jump tickets. I dont think that most DZO's are all about the money, if they were we would already see higher prices. Considering the aircraft costs, fuel costs, operation costs, shit, I'm pretty stoked that I get to jump for around 22 bucks! I think that the USPA has probably done quite abit to keep operating costs down for most DZs. As for training being expensive for new jumpers, well, nobody said this sport is cheap. If your gonna jump, you better get used to the fact that it's gonna cost a bit, not just during training but as long as you jump assuming you do more than a couple jumps per month. If a student wants it bad enough, they will find a way to finish it regardless of cost, and the price they pay once again keeps my jump prices down, and again I'm ok with that. If you wanna play, you gotta pay. I'm also gonna repeat what alot of people have said again and say I think that without the USPA we would hear alot more from people like the FAA and this sport probably would not be what it is today in the US. The USPA may not be there for everything that we want every time we want it, but overall I think they do have what's best for the sport in mind when they make decisions and push for things with the Gov't. I personally think the USPA is a great organization which may need some work around the edges, and at times they could use a little more backbone (skyride), but I'll keep happily supporting them and remain a member quite possibly long after I'm done jumping (although I cant imagion why I'd stop jumping now) .

Just my 2 cents..

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

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I don't think that is always true. It may not even be true most of the time. Often DZs set policy based on profit, and not safety. That is not good for skydivers. Granted, it doesn't always happen that way, but often it does.



I disagree with the use of the word 'often'. I think 'seldom' is more appropriate. Most DZO's did not start DZ's because they had a financial goal in mind. They started because they like the sport and it is a passion.

Sure, we need to make profit, but that is not 'often' chosen over safety. The two go hand in hand. The old saying "If you think safety is expensive, then try having an accident...."

Skydivers, if they really think the DZ is 'unsafe' or is choosing profit over safety, is simply 'endorsing' that activity by jumping there. Let your feet do the walking and go somehwere else, thus removing the profit.

TK



I have jumped at exactly one DZ that did not cut safety corners to some degree, and I was there for a very limited time, so it is possible that I just didn't see it. That seems more like often rather than seldom.

Some common things that favor profit over safety:

No second jump run when warranted by a long or short spot.
Different standards for wind/weather holds depending on whether or not there are tandems on the load.
Holding instructors/coaches to different standards in the landing area because grounding them would reduce the number of jumps their students would make.
Allowing packers to pack unsupervised.

I'm not saying every drop zone is blatantly dangerous. No set of rules can replace good judgement on the part of the jumper. However, some DZs make it fairly easy for bad habits to become accepted standard practice.

For Great Deals on Gear


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I think we could make learning to skydive a lot easier for those who can't afford it if DZ's that have stopped doing S/L would bring it back.

We could also make it more affordable by not being gear snobs. Don't tell new jumpers that older gear is unsafe simply because it isn't freefly friendly or because the main opens faster than a more modern design or because the reserve shouldn't be loaded over 1.0. As long as a jumper is informed of the limitations of older gear and operates within those limitations it's going to work fine to get them in the air until they can afford something newer.



I am so delighted that you mentioned these!
They are both so true.

Althought the first involves a decision that must be made by the DZO, the second can be practiced by all skydivers.

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Hmmm. I haven't posted in a long time, but I was eating lunch at work and I found this thread entertaining enough to read it all and then of course, it's hard not to want to put in your 2 cents. (now that I read what I wrote, it looks more like 4 or 6 cents).

I'm kind of a "reluctant" DZO. Many days I'd much rather be sitting around fun jumping all day, instead of having to deal with dumping the trash, answering the phone, trying to remember to feed the jump pilots, packing student rigs, trying to explain to angry student and their families about wind limits, and all the other really glamorous things that dzos get to do.

Before owning the DZ, I had plenty of complaints about our DZO, S&TA, USPA....etc. However, one day our dz closed unexpectedly. We found ourselves having to travel a long way to jump and didn't always like what we found. So, reluctantly, we decided to re-start a dz at our local airport.

Sometimes it's the most amazing thing to do, and sometimes I can't imaging what misfiring neurons in my brain caused me to do this.

What I've discovered, both from my own experience and talking to many other dzos, is that except for a few very rare exceptions, there just isn't much profit in this business. I could have invested the same amount of money in some other venture, incurred less risk, and have given the same amount of my time and labor, and the resulting profit margins would have GREATLY exceeded anything in the skydiving business. Again, except for a few rarities, it's the love of the sport and the love of sharing it with others that makes someone open a dz.

An odd phenomenon with this business is that our primary customers---licensed jumpers---actually often cause us to incur a loss, especially now with the higher insurance and fuel costs. Right now, a full load on our 182 of licensed jumpers is a net loss to me. Yes, I do cringe when my folks take 2 or 3 passes in the 182, or fly around for 15 minutes at altitude, looking for a hole to jump though, then come back down and jump at 3000 and pay our 3000 rate, since I don't want them taking chances with cloud clearances. Yes, I love our regular jumpers and there would be no sport without you, but please appreciate a little of what we do to keep you jumping and to keep your jump tickets cheap.

Tight profit margins do create an inherent motivation to save money where you can. Sometimes, we have to change policies when we see something happening that could impact safety. Knowing the bills I had waiting for me to pay, I've been tempted to send up the students when wind conditions were borderline. Now, we intentionally have someone with no interest in the DZ as S&TA, and have given him final decision-making authority with respect to winds and other limitations, since he can make this desision purely with safety in mind, and has no profit motive.

Also, we used to give students the option of pre-paying for their entire course through their A-license up front for a flat fee. Quickly, I learned that this created a motive for us to pass student when their performance on a jump was questionable, since repeating jumps cut into our profits. So again, we stopped doing things this way.

I think that most dzos and their staff work very hard to make this potentially dangerous sport as safe as possible. I know that when I market our sport to a student, teach that student, pack a person's researve, and encourage people to fly on my plane, that their lives depend on me. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't give them the best training, best equipment, best plane and best chance of not being killed as possible, even if it sometimes makes me wonder why I'm in this business when I run our end of the years proft/loss statement.

Our licensed jumpers really want us to get rid of our 182s and buy a shiny new turbine aircraft that can get them to 14,000 in ten minutes, without paying more for jump tickets. When we can't afford it, they may go off and jump elsewhere.

My point is that this business is tough. Few get into it because the money is good. Most dzos are people who have a total love for skydiving, just like you. Because of this, and their willingness to take on a huge risk and burden, there are lots of places to skydive at very reasonable prices for licensed jumpers (and also because USPA, with a very small constituent base, has been able to hold the government regulators at bay). I know of very few places who would send up their students in 30 knot winds to make a buck. If you know of such places, don't ever go there again yourself, or send anyone there, even if their airplane is really big and fast.

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Yes, I do cringe when my folks take 2 or 3 passes in the 182, or fly around for 15 minutes at altitude, looking for a hole to jump though, then come back down and jump at 3000 and pay our 3000 rate,



I don't want to reply to the whole thread, but I want to make a comment here. At my club, if the plane goes up to full altitude and has to go back down, we still pay full altitude price.
Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

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What is the point of the USPA?

Like a lot of governing bodies of questionable use they are mostly concerned with the continuation of their own existence.... and attending conferences at others expense.

They will be very concerned with justifying their assumed importance in their own secluded and semi-secret world.

From the outside they will look sort of irrelevant . From the inside everything they do is of the utmost importance.

They will be very good at making a fuss about nothing and achieving very little compared to their founders.

They will happily do and say the same things year after year as if they like travelling in circles and going nowhere.

They recreate themselves in their own image.

They will often truly believe that we cannot get by without them.

People who support them financially will often wonder 'why do we pay these guys?.'

They are specialists at threatening us with increased insurance costs , rampant out of control danger ,which they think they keep in check, and anything else thay can come up with to mainatain their positions of assumed power.

;)

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Im just curious- What is the actual point of the existence of USPA?

I see it as a double edged sword- but ignore my unsatisfied views with the organization, I am interested in listening why this actually exists.

Or, I guess why does USPA represent Jumpers AND dropzones?

David, I just find it hard to take stuff like this seriously. These kind of objections are usually just a cheap excuse for "I hate shelling out $49 a year".

If there was no USPA you would NOT be skydiving. End of story. If you think you want to skydive, pay the $49 and quit compaining. Or run for the BOD if you've got such great ideas. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
AOPA does not represent pilot's AND the airports they fly at.

Finally, why is parachutist not optional? Its stupid to have 3 copies coming to the same house.

Just wondering.



Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

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They recreate themselves in their own image



You are the USPA, I am the USPA.

I suggest you get of your high horse, maybe attend a meeting if you are so concerned with how things are run?

Did you vote? Have you contacted the BOD's with your concerns and/or solutions? Have you EVER attended a BOD meeting?

I had a bitch with the USPA some years ago, so I contacted the BOD's, some of which cared enough to reply and then I showed up at a meeting, guess what, I got what I needed done.

If you are really passionate about this, you need to show up at a BOD meeting, but I would become familiar with the procedures first. All that information is available on the USPA's website.

j
Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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The point?
REAL representation... Not by some asshole only cares about reelection but by people with a vested interest... Other jumpers.
I'm surprised nobody mentioned this, people have short memories...
So far as I'm concerned USPA more than justified its existence when it successfully defended us from the psychotics in the TSA our government put at the airport gates... the ones who were chopping rigs to pieces with bolt cutters and punching holes in sealed reserves because their tiny brains can't allow anything through they can't open, look inside or take apart. If not for the USPA packing enough political clout to slap the TSA into line they'd STILL be pretending they think skydivers could possibly be terrorists and cutting our rigs open for our "safety."
Or you could try getting the TSA to notice and acknowledge you as an individual by changing its policies to cease inconveniencing you if you think you'd be more effective. So far as I know TSA is not allowed to recognize the existence of actual individual human beings. Only "other organizations" "suspects" and "terrorists" exist. You don't get to go from "terrorist" to "suspect" and get on the plane unless they either: A: get to open your reserve to make sure that nylon isn't somehow a weapon, or B: get threatened with legal attack by the USPA which is rather upset by TSA's attempts to kill its members for their safety.
If you ever get on a commercial airliner with your rig, thank the USPA guys. If not for them, your rig would be returned to you, nice, safe, and chopped into little pieces.
Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

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trying to explain to angry student and their families about wind limits,



I thought it was kind of funny when I was at the DZ for my second or third jump and several people
on staff were extremely apologetic when they explained that the winds were too fast. I knew it
wasn't anybody's "fault" that the winds were too high, but some people must get really bent about it.

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An odd phenomenon with this business is that our primary customers---licensed jumpers---actually
often cause us to incur a loss, especially now with the higher insurance and fuel costs.



But you make it up in volume, right? When I first thought about the economics of the situation, I
figured that the normal lift ticket was probably pretty close to the marginal cost of putting one more
jumper on the load, and so far I haven't found much to disprove that.

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Knowing the bills I had waiting for me to pay, I've been tempted to send up the students when
wind conditions were borderline. Now, we intentionally have someone with no interest in the DZ as
S&TA, and have given him final decision-making authority with respect to winds and other limitations,
since he can make this desision purely with safety in mind, and has no profit motive.



I have heard another view - basically, that the DZO may have something to gain by (say) putting up
students in marginal winds, but the DZO also has a lot to lose if something goes wrong - aircraft,
lease, lawsuits, etc. An independent S&TA doesn't have nearly as much to lose as the DZO. Maybe,
among DZOs, this argument is as popular as "AAD or not" among regular jumpers, or "Ford vs. Chevy"
among race fans - I don't know.

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Our licensed jumpers really want us to get rid of our 182s and buy a shiny new turbine aircraft
that can get them to 14,000 in ten minutes, without paying more for jump tickets.



You forgot the hot female pilot in the bikini. :)

Eule
PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

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FAA Rules in Skydiving’s Favor (01/25/06)

The FAA has issued a major ruling that overturns a ban on skydiving and reinstates a DZ at a small airport in Tennessee. The ruling also reinforces USPA’s position that general aviation airports must not discriminate against skydiving activities. In its determination, the FAA finds the airport to be in violation of its grant agreements with the FAA and directs the airport to devise a plan to accommodate skydiving within 30 days.

The DZ, Skydive Paris, had been operating at the Henry County Airport for nearly ten years when the airport manager advised the DZ to cease skydiving in March 2004, alleging that skydiving jeopardized safety at the airport. From the DZO’s initial phone call, USPA immediately became involved, orchestrating what turned into a series of studies, airport site visits, letters, and FAA findings that at each level revealed complete FAA support for continued skydiving at the airport. At each turn, the airport management and county officials dug their heels in deeper, continuing the ban in defiance of FAA conclusions favorable to skydiving. Finally, after exhausting all other remedies, the USPA Board approved using the association’s Airport Access Defense Fund to support submission of a formal complaint under the FAA’s Part 16 process. Using $5,000 from the AAD fund, USPA’s attorney, and considerable staff resources, USPA and the DZO succeeded in having the FAA docket the complaint in June 2005, meaning that officials at FAA Headquarters would take an in-depth look and issue the agency’s final word on the matter.

The FAA’s determination clearly sides with the DZ by concluding: 1) “FAA determines that the Airport can safely accommodate on-airport drop zones,” and 2) “By prohibiting use of the established drop zones, [the Airport] has unjustly discriminated against the [DZ] … a violation of Grant Assurance …” The FAA also threatened to withhold any future federal grant money from the airport until the situation was remedied.

Amid the 28 pages of the FAA determination are several findings that also benefit all of skydiving. The determination states that: 1) “ Parachute jumping is an aeronautical use,” 2) “ Parachute jumping activities must normally be accommodated at a federally-obligated airport,” 3) “ There exists a long-standing precedent for affording skydivers the same operational latitude given to an aircraft in flight or while taxiing …”

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I thought it was kind of funny when I was at the DZ for my second or third jump and several people
on staff were extremely apologetic when they explained that the winds were too fast. I knew it
wasn't anybody's "fault" that the winds were too high, but some people must get really bent about it.




You have no idea.:D More than once I've been hanging on to my had for dear life, watching the last load to go up getting pounded in in high winds, turbulance, after droping through hail, only to have some punter get in my face about how he's "Not scared" and I should "just take him up for his g'damned jump he paid $200 for and how he got up at 7 in the morning just to be there, and why didn't we call and tell him the weather would be shit?!"

I usually just stare at them like they are a cow, and then maybe suggest they find somewhere else to be.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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I thought you, like me, lived in Australia? Neither of us are qualified to speak on the effectiveness or otherwise of USPA. They operate in a significantly more litigious environment, without the legal mandate the APF has from CASA (~=FAA), and have persuasion as their primary means of enforcement.

Not an easy environment in which to operate, and I wouldn't be so quick to judge those that work in it.

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An odd phenomenon with this business is that our primary customers---licensed jumpers---actually
often cause us to incur a loss, especially now with the higher insurance and fuel costs.



But you make it up in volume, right?



Groan :P.

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You forgot the hot female pilot in the bikini. :)



Move to Hawaii.

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B| I agree with all those in support of the USPA, at the moment. It's the best deal going, right now...unfortunately, I sense serious problems due to past experience.
The American Motorcycle Association was much the same type of organization, in the beginning. Like USPA, they regulated the motorcycle racing industry, provided sanctioning and insurance.....they still do.
Problem is....at some point, they gave in to pressure from promoters, advertisers and the big factory teams. They began to cater to them on every aspect of the sport and the racing public suffered horribly. Motocross, for all intents and purposes, ceased to exist....at least, not in any relevant or recognizable form. Many people, from all facets of racing were simply "priced out" of the sport, due to a "factory production rule" that was enacted on behalf of the factories. If the USPA goes that way, we're gonna' have to give in to the government....if nothing else, to preserve a small remnant of the sport.
"T'was ever thus."

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