Minor Canopy Collision

[migliore 0]

I was jumping with some great guys last Sat. at an out-of-state DZ. I had jumped there and with some of these guys a few times before. All are at least relatively experienced (couple hundred jumps). Toward the end of the day we decided to screw around and did a 5-way horny gorilla out of a caravan with a diver and cameraman following. One of the guys left early and caused the exit to fall apart. The plan was to form a BFR on the low guy if things went to hell. Unfortunately, the low guy was falling at about Mach 2! Only 2 of us made it to him before break time. At 4,500, our 3-way turned and flat-tracked away. I scanned my airspace during tracking by first looking down and in front of me and then by looking under each shoulder and quickly looking around above me. Everything looked cool. I reached back for my hackey and all of the sudden saw a jumper waving off directly beneath me (~300 feet away). I had never prepared for this situation, and I didn't have time to weigh all of the options. My first instinct was stay above him by opening NOW! So I did...I completed the pull and looked for him during snivel. Unfortunately my canopy (Spectre 150) snivels quite a bit more than his (South African ZP ~170?). A second after dumping, my body hit his mostly open canopy on the 2nd or 3rd cell and I bounced away to the left. I used my rear risers to steer away and then I hand-signalled him to make sure he was OK.

It was scary as hell, but I stayed calm the whole time and tried to do the best with the decisions that I had made. In retrospect, it may have been possible, once I saw the other jumper, to hard track away and open lower, but that option would have introduced the possibility of hitting him or his opening canopy while I was in freefall (huge impact), and I probably would have been dumping low enough that my snivel might have gotten close to my cyprus altitude.

In the end, we both walked away unhurt and with no equipment damage. We talked about the incident and tried to determine how he got directly beneath me without either of us noticing. Our best guess was that he was tracking below and behind me and we both happened to stop at the same point.

Shane

[FrogNog 1]

Sounds like once the situation happened, you did the best you could. Glad it turned out OK!

So... got video?

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[ryoder 1,380]

The last time I heard of someone playing the I-hope-my-canopy-opens-before-his game, the result was the top jumper punching a hole in the lower canopy, and two canopies fused together in a wad of garbage. The result was two cutaways, two reserve rides, and two destroyed mains.

He was the low man and had the right-of-way. You were the high man, and your job was to avoid him, and THEN deploy; Not vice-versa. You can track away from such situations. Been there, done that. It's tougher to track when you are dragging a deploying canopy.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Chrisky 0]

You're two lucky guys.

This reads like a very good example of how the big sky theory is no replacement for a good planned dive and disciplined breakoff procedures.
Would RW people go on a 5way when they aren't able to keep level?

Did you mean a 5way plus diver plus camera? Or a 3way plus the two?

Edited to add: Which of the other jumpers was it? One of the three man base or the early guy or even someone else?

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[migliore 0]

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Did you mean a 5way plus diver plus camera? Or a 3way plus the two?

5way plus diver plus camera

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Edited to add: Which of the other jumpers was it? One of the three man base or the early guy or even someone else?

He was one of the guys in the original 5-way, but not one of 3 that made it together before breakoff.

Shane

[migliore 0]

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He was the low man and had the right-of-way. You were the high man, and your job was to avoid him, and THEN deploy; Not vice-versa. You can track away from such situations. Been there, done that. It's tougher to track when you are dragging a deploying canopy.

I agree with you that he had the right-of-way, and that, in retrospect, tracking was probably the better option (I mentioned this in the original post). My reason for posting this incident was to get those who have never been in this situation to consider it, so that they may be better prepared if it ever happens to them.

Shane

[Chrisky 0]

Ok, so seven people in the air and only three were able to get together at some point.

So he was one of the five, but not one of the three out of the seven....

Maybe it was not the smartest thing to do?

In reply to why you shared this: While it is a good thing to know what to do in this situation, this incident is more of a example what you should do to prevent getting in that situation in the first place.
Like why not to get more people into a dive than actually makes sense.
That was a 6way with camera, out of which three people made it together and obviously not all managed to stay aware of the others. That is a situation you should not get in.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[karlm 0]

WOW - Glad to hear all involved walked away from it. Very lucky.

Low Man has right of way, as he cannot see you above him.

We did a inflatable dive in December, there were eight of us, one on the dolphin and two on either side (aff style) the rest were seperate exits and would dock the formation. We made one rule, if you went low at any stage, you were to track away, no matter what the altitude and pull at 3500ft.

This way we ensured that anybody below us would be out the way, otherwise they would just hover around and end up below a jumper on pull time.

If worked great and you can see the low guys tracking off when they go low. Great skydive.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

[pkasdorf 0]

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Sounds like once the situation happened, you did the best you could. Glad it turned out OK!

As far as I know it was not the best option. The best option was to track away.

HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

[darkwing 4]

I agree with the poster who said that playing the "hope my canopy opens fast" game is a bad choice. I believe you should have bailed out 90 degrees to the tracking direction for a couple of seconds, then pulled.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[piisfish 135]

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We did a inflatable dive in December, there were eight of us, one on the dolphin and two on either side (aff style)

was that the Pia rides the dolphin jump ??? seen pics on the JSC site. Nice..
In case of special jumps like that, it's always good to brief the :"what if the jump screws" alternative...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[tigra 0]

The last time I heard of someone playing the "I Hope My Canopy Opens First Game" the lower jumper died and the other one spent several months in the hospital. Lets be careful out there guys!

I do agree that the low man has the right of way, but he also has an obligation to track. In the above instance, the lower jumper should not have been in that airspace and the higher jumper had limited room to maneuver so he did the best he could.

Regardless of the size or type of the skydive, if something goes wrong and you aren't going to get in, you need to get the hell away from it!

[ManBird 0]

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Sounds like once the situation happened, you did the best you could. Glad it turned out OK!

As far as I know it was not the best option. The best option was to track away.

I agree. I've been in this position before. One was even with a girl that went low and dumped high with no wave off (dumbass). I've generally just tracked forwards, rather than turn and track (maybe a slight change of heading they're opening in a track). If you're falling past them during their deployment, anyway, why waste time with a turn? This is assuming you were DIRECTLY overhead (which you obviously were -- hence the collision). Not saying that this is the answer, but it's what I would have done (and have done) in the situation you described.

Glad you're OK. I'm assuming the canopy fared OK?

"¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯"

Click

[dnewcomer 0]

The term "minor canopy collision" is an oxymoron (like "honest politician").

Who would consider any canopy collision with a freefaller to be "minor"???

D--

[migliore 0]

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Who would consider any canopy collision with a freefaller to be "minor"???

1) Both of us were under inflating canopies and had significantly slowed down...there was no "freefaller".

2) Having seen a major canopy collision that resulted in a fatality, I would say that a quick bounce (with no injuries or equipment damage) is a minor collision. This does not in any way reduce the seriousness of having any collision.

Shane

[sducoach 0]

Migliore,

Glad it worked out that no one was injured. Let's consider the cause of the collision.

When you start tracking the first thing you should be looking for is clear airspace. While tracking you should be looking below to first confirm no one is low and in that airspace, while also checking above. It appears that neither of you did so. If either one had cleared the airspace this should not have happened.

Lesson learned, all survived, it was a good day.

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[DanG 1]

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Regardless of the size or type of the skydive, if something goes wrong and you aren't going to get in, you need to get the hell away from it!

I disagree. If you are not going to get in, you need to keep trying and stay close until normal breakoff altitude. That way, everyone knows where you are, you know where everyone else is, and you don't find yourself right over top of a mystery diver at pull time.

Leaving a dive early makes you an unknown quantity. Staying as close as possible keep you part of the dive.

- Dan G

[tigra 0]

If you're close, then yes, stay close and keep trying. If you are hopelessly low and have no chance of getting in, get away, far far away. That's what I've always been taught.

[DanG 1]

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If you are hopelessly low and have no chance of getting in, get away, far far away.

Perhaps, but if you are hopelessly low, than you shouldn't have been on the dive in the first place. If an organizer has to plan for people being hopelessly low or far away, then he/she is not doing a good job of matching people with the appropriate dive.

In the situation that started this thread, it has already been pointed out that perhaps the dive was over the heads of some of the participants.

If you find yourself 1000 feet below a dive, then yes, I agree that turning 90 degrees to jump run and tracking for the rest of the jump is appropriate, but I don't want people to think that going 20 feet low on a dive is a license to go have an impromtu solo.

- Dan G

[Mad47 0]

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He was the low man and had the right-of-way.

A guy with bunch of jumps goes low on 10 way FS skydive, then he begins to "track" at ~5K (earlier than planned break-off and pitches at about 3.5-3K.
I happen to be in his sector after break-off and track over his head by the time he extracts his PC (no waive-off).

Tell me he was right because of low-man-has-a-right-of-way-rule.

[Remster 24]

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I happen to be in his sector after break-off and track over his head by the time he extracts his PC (no waive-off).

Tell me he was right because of low-man-has-a-right-of-way-rule.

Without having all the info....

Sorry, but you didnt happen to be in his sector, you traked towards him if he in deed started to track early. Its your job to not get over him.

Remster

[KATO33 0]

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Without having all the info....

Sorry, but you didnt happen to be in his sector, you traked towards him if he in deed started to track early. Its your job to not get over him.

I agree with this

Blue Skies Black Death

[Mad47 0]

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Without having all the info....

Sorry, but you didnt happen to be in his sector, you traked towards him if he in deed started to track early. Its your job to not get over him.

I agree with this

I disagree with this.
It is possible to keep track of people who are low and avoid them after break off without creating some major traffic problem if you are doing 10-way. But what if skydive gets bigger? Just imagine someone goes low, leaves early, tracks poorly and than finally pulls high on lets say 40-way. How many degrees is everyone’s sector right after break-off if 36 people leave at the same time?
The low-man-has-a-right-of-way is a bad excuse for poor tracking skills and awareness.

[KATO33 0]

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I disagree with this.
It is possible to keep track of people who are low and avoid them after break off without creating some major traffic problem if you are doing 10-way. But what if skydive gets bigger? Just imagine someone goes low, leaves early, tracks poorly and than finally pulls high on lets say 40-way. How many degrees is everyone’s sector right after break-off if 36 people leave at the same time?
The low-man-has-a-right-of-way is a bad excuse for poor tracking skills and awareness.
Go big or go home

A person with poor tracking and awareness skills shouldn't be on a 40 way IMHO.

Blue Skies Black Death

[ps5601 0]

Generally, if you are on a formation of that size you should not be going low, but I understand that it can happen (say you get taken out and can't get back up.

The rules I have always played by for this situation are, if you are low, and not getting back up, start tracking. Keep tracking until the agreed deployment height and deploy (after slowing down and waving off). If you start tracking 2000ft early and keep tracking until deployment height then you should not be in the way of the others on the jump, even with bad tracking. On a jump the size of 40+ way it is unlikely that there will be others in another group that you will be tracking into (although I understand that from aircraft such as the AN-72 or the Herc it is a possibility).

Blue skies

Paul