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Downsizing too much?

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You can't expect a clear answer on that question if you don't post your jumpnumbers and exitweight..

It is always a good idea to downsize one step at a time...first try out a 170 a couple of times before going eventually to a 150

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Before I start, you know it would help if you had some sort of information in your profile so anyone who reads this can have a very basic idea of your skill level...btw..this sounds like a troll.

I'll give two pieces of advice.
1. It depends. on what? A lot of factors. Jumps (#'s and types) Any canopy coaching you've had, wingloading, type of canopy...etc
2. Talk to your AFF instructors or an experienced canopy pilot at your dz and have him or her evaluate your canopy skills.


I personally did go from a Spectre 190 to a Spectre 150, but I did had done a lot of talking to some very experienced pilots who knew me, and even then I did about 50 jumps on a Sabre and Sabre 2 170 before moving to the 150.
"Dancing Argentine Tango is like doing calculus with your feet."
-9 toes

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I was fine the first 30 or 50 jumps after I downsized from a 190 to a 150. Now that my orthopedic surgeon has cleared me to jump again, I'm looking forward to jumping the 170 I traded my 150 for. (After a couple of refresher jumps on larger canopies.)

Granted, my stupidity was the real cause of my injury, but I was also too highly loaded on the 150 for my own good and the combination was a bit much. Glad I recovered from that lesson. :S

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

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what the hell is a troll? You think im lying? you got a chip on your shoulder or something? i asked for some advice, i dont wanna hear your prejudices!



re-read his reply to you. He gave 2 pieces of specific advice and never said liar. He said troll. I'm sorta new around here but I think it's someone who doesn't provide any info about themselves and then asks a loaded question, possibly with the intent of stirring up trouble.

Check his advice (that's A) and the troll-thing will disappear if you make yourself known and stick around (that's B) :)
jason

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what the hell is a troll?



You can find a good explanation HERE.


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You think im lying? you got a chip on your shoulder or something? i asked for some advice, i dont wanna hear your prejudices!



A common habit of trolls is to post very controversial questions or some very vague questions that leave a lot of room for a conversation to spin up to high RPMs. Yours falls into the latter category. You are very likely not a troll, just rather new at posting here and in need of some pointers.

Now to your question: you will get a much more thorough and carefully thought out response if you give us some more information about your experience level and equipment you are jumping now.

Ultimately you can get the best and most accurate advice from the Instructional Staff at your home DZ who have first hand knowledge of your canopy piloting skills and previous downsizing progression.
Arrive Safely

John

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ok, well i my weight is 130 lbs. I go to sibson dropzone but have been to elsinore and am going again in march. I currently jump a javelin with 190 spectre, havent quite got my B license. I love the wind tunnel in perris valley, just glad the uk has finally got one..... no make that two! The whole of England has two tunnels and they are only about half an hour apart!!!

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Most folks here are going to tell you that if at all possible, you should not skip sizes, even if you only do a few jumps on the intermediate sizes. It keeps the incremental speed differences smaller.

That said, you are looking to downsize to a 1.0wl, which is not horrible for someone with 60 jumps.

Get advice from folks who have seen you fly. You might have good canopy skills and good judgment, and you might not. I really don't know.

Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

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Since nobody has said it yet, I'll tell you to follow Billvon's guidelines for downsizing:

"No fixed time/#of jumps; it depends on your skill. On your current canopy can you:

-flat turn (at least 90 deg at 50 feet)
-flare turn (at least 45 deg)
-land in rear risers
-land consistently in a 10 meter circle
-land crosswind and no wind
-land on slight uphills/downhills
-do a double front riser approach

If you can do all that, you're probably ready to downsize. Coaching will make that day come a lot sooner. Don't make the mistake of downsizing quickly, and ending up under a canopy that scares you too much to try the above; if you're afraid to push your canopy you'll never learn to fly it. "


Good luck!



HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

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> Does anyone think that downsizing from a 190 to a 150 is too much to handle?

Short answer - yes. It is too much for you to handle.

Medium answer - a 150 flies very differently from a 190. Depending on loading, you will have to relearn a lot of things, like flaring all the way down, or steering during the planeout. It's possible that you have already learned these things by jumping Sabre 1 170's and Triathalon 160's and thus are ready for the 150 - but since you're asking the question, I have to assume that you haven't done those things.

Long answer -

Far too many skydivers make massive jumps in canopy size without training, and without even learning how to fly their current canopy. They think things like "everyone else jumps a 150" "I can handle it" "I'll just be reaaallly reallly careful." Then they make a few jumps on the 150 and don't die so they figure they're OK with it. The problem is that even after a dozen jumps, they have never learned to fly it. They've never turned low; they're scared to death of the thing and so they decide to "play it safe" and not turn low. After time they get over their fear, but they _still_ never turn low. They stay on a straight-in final from 500 feet just like they were still jumping a Manta.

Then one day someone runs in front of them or cuts them off. And they turn the only way they know how - they pull down a toggle. And the parachute functions exactly as it was designed to and flies them into the ground at 35mph.

How to avoid this? Don't downsize quickly. Learn to really fly your 190. Can you flare turn 45 degrees with it? Flat turn 90 degrees at 50 feet? Land crosswind? Do a high performance landing with front risers? Land with rear risers? If not, learn to do that stuff FIRST on a canopy you are comfortable with - because you're sure as hell not going to do it on a canopy you're afraid of, or are 'being careful' with.

Then, when you can do that, try all that stuff on a 170. You will probably be in for some suprises, and you may not be able to do that all at once. But once you can do it, you'll be ready for the 150.

Keep in mind that "being a canopy pilot" does not mean that you can land without injury. It means that you, not the canopy, is in charge, and it does what you tell it, goes where you want it to go, and lands you where you want, how you want. You have to always think five seconds ahead of the parachute. It can take a while to learn all that, and it's a lot easier to learn it on a large parachute that gives you more time to think.

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Does anyone think that downsizing from a 190 to a 150 is too much to handle?



I have no idea of your skills, but I downsized from a 190 to a 150 (in my case my wallet trumped by smarts, as it was either buy a 170 and miss out on a hell of a deal for the 150 I really wanted or go for the 150). I had about 220 jumps when I did mind you, but just talk to an instructor or S&TA and trust what they say. Billvon's is an excellent guildline. You should be 110% proficient at that on the 190 if you even think about going to the 150. Things will happen much quicker and be much less forgiving.



I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

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ok, well i my weight is 130 lbs. I go to sibson dropzone but have been to elsinore and am going again in march. I currently jump a javelin with 190 spectre, havent quite got my B license. I love the wind tunnel in perris valley, just glad the uk has finally got one..... no make that two! The whole of England has two tunnels and they are only about half an hour apart!!!



Nice one! Good of you to put that out there for everyone - with that said, check out what Billvon posted as well as the others. One thing they've all clued me into when reading posts is always check in with your instructors / coaches / highly experienced skydivers at your dropzone of choice as your primary point of reference. And good luck to you in furthering your skydiving career safely! I'm looking into wind tunnels myself as they seem like a great way to accelerate learning - I've haven't been to one yet.

cheers,
jason

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Granted, my stupidity was the real cause of my injury, but I was also too highly loaded on the 150 for my own good and the combination was a bit much. Glad I recovered from that lesson.



I beg to differ. I wouldn't call it stupidity. From a 190 to a 150, it's not the landing you should worry about. It's the decision time.

As you go through the learning curve, you will be introduced to various senarios. You will have to make decisions on the fly. The larger canopy will allow you a few more seconds to make a decision, plan an out, etc. The more experience you gain, the quicker your decision making ability...

So perhaps it was lack of experience and lack of decision time that led to your poor decision. That should not be confused with stupidity.

But I don't know the facts. Maybe you are just stupid. ;)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

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With the biggest respect and very low experience i would listen to someone like billyvon who sounds like my (extremely experienced) CCI and other equally experienced intructors at my dropzone, with 42 jumps myself and on a fury and planning to be for a long time i think downsizing too soon is killing a lot of people who are far too young to die.

Ally

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I think the honest answer is: You probably be okay. Probably. I downsized from a 190 to 150 in one step, apart from the two times I nearly killed myself it was all good. Both incidents where low turns during off dz landings - I hit so hard the lenses popped out of my glasses, a helmet, soft ground / long grass and a heap of luck saved me [twice]. Probably...

Why rush. Don't be in a hurry to downsize, unless your flying your canopy on every jump to the max of it's performance envelope whats the point? Jump the money you save or tunnel it - canopys cost a bunch. The hotshots tell me that downsizing too quick can hold back your learning.

Don't go getting gear stigma either, a 190 can still be made to move if pushed - Extremly accurate landings - nominated license or even demos. Bit of CRW. You'll never have to walk back to the DZ on a long spot, fly and get the bus to pick up the others! Catching thermals - all good. So why rush?



Battery's not included: As someone said let dz.com provide questions, rather than answers. Talk to those that are qualified and that you trust + know you personally.


Blue skies, Benno

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Bill
Are you saying that we should actually do 45 degree flare turns and 90degree flat turns at 50ft above the ground before downsizing or practice the technique at altitude so you can do these things? it just seems a bit risky for low no. jumpers to actual do a low turn.

cheers


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>Are you saying that we should actually do 45 degree flare turns and
> 90degree flat turns at 50ft above the ground before downsizing or
> practice the technique at altitude so you can do these things? it just
> seems a bit risky for low no. jumpers to actual do a low turn.

Both! Start high (of course) but also try them out low. That's where you will need them. If your canopy ever gets hit by a gust when you're planing out, you will need the skill to flare turn to keep yourself upright. If you ever get cut off at 50 feet, you'll need to know how to do that, too.

It's a gradual process, of course. First practice them up high to see how they all feel (see my article in the safety/canopy control area on how to do that.) Then try turning just five degrees in the flare. Try turning just ten degrees at 50 feet. That will give you the feedback you need to see if you're getting it, or if you need a little more work at altitude. Then proceed using your best judgement (and perhaps some feedback from a canopy coach.)

Even if you never get beyond a 5 degree flare turn during your planeout, you will at least know the basics of how to do it. And if you ever do have to use it, you'll be a lot better off than someone who's never tried.

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> So how do you best evaluate your performance at higher altitude?

It's not easy. There are some notes in that article to give you a general idea, which are basically "see what your canopy does." But no altimeter will let you see if you can do a flare turn, because you have to be accurate to within a few feet. So I think you have to eventually try one (even a 5 degree one) during the actual flare, once it "feels" right to you higher up.

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