bigbearfng 9 #1 February 19, 2006 I'm finding this kinda difficult to articulate.... The recent incident in Belize; I'm finding myself wanting to ask about depth perception over water-I've heard that folk have chopped their main before landing on water at excess altitude; so can the same theory apply to not being able to estimate altitude the other way over water-it looks like you've still got lots of altitude left..... I'm then realizing why I want to ask-at least for myself-it's trying to find a "reason", because shit, given similar circumstances with me in it, if it can happen to a guy that experienced what chance does my rookie ass stand!? A hook turn, OK, I can tell myself-I don't do that, so I'm OK there....forgot to turn on the cypress at the DZ-OK, I know that; so I can break the chain of events there.....but when it's unk. and especially someone you've met, and you know he's really experienced and not a yahoo.....shit, I find that it's hard not to try to grasp for a reason.... Alright, sorry for the rambling, but I think I can now understand where sometimes the "speculation" is coming from. Granted I'm sure a good amount of it is bullshit speculation, but some of it I'm sure is coming from another direction........... BSBD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #2 February 19, 2006 Quote I'm finding myself wanting to ask about depth perception over water-I've heard that folk have chopped their main before landing on water at excess altitude; so can the same theory apply to not being able to estimate altitude the other way over water-it looks like you've still got lots of altitude left..... I've been wanting to ask this too. I can understand I think that water would make visual alti awareness very difficult , and that goes back to the other alti awareness threads: someone posted once that visual alti awareness doesn't always work that well at unfamiliar DZs, and I can imagine this would be exacerbated jumping over water? fwiw when we were taught hazardous landings in FJC, we were taught not to chop until our feet hit the water because it is very difficult to judge height over water.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #3 February 19, 2006 Yes it can, I know when flying an plane over open oceans one can get disorinted and not be able to tell sky from water. A four way went in at the north pole because of the same thing over the ice/snow tricking the mind and looking like there is more altitude then there is. So I would have to say it could/can happen. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #4 February 19, 2006 Not sure about Belize, but in the last few weeks I did a handful of jumps over water at the Keys boogie and a few beach jumps at the freefall festival in Puerto Rico.When you're jumping over water, you're generally not intending to land in the water--there's going to be land nearby. If the sky is 1/2 covered with clouds it's possible that the ground could be obscured...but honestly I don't think you'll find too many people willing to jump over water without seeing the land underneath them. In some cases the jumprun will be parallel to the shore. The case you have to worry about is when the jumprun angles away from the shore or is perpendicular to the shore. In this case the jumpers first out or more likely last out (assuming upwind jumprun) may be a significant distance from the shore. I did two such jumps between the two boogies, and on both such jumps it was hard to get a visual sense from the ground. I did feel a bit uncomfortable at having to look towards the horizon for visual altimetry.Intuitively it seems like putting the jumprun parallel to the shore is preferable to a perpendicular approach, even if it means a cross-wind jumprun. What do the rest of you think?My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bert_man 0 #5 February 19, 2006 I'm not sure if it was just speculation or not, but I read somewhere that the jumper was flying a wingsuit at the time. If this is true, it would further support the altitude awareness theory, as it can be difficult to visually judge altitude properly with a wingsuit anyway, let alone over water. I'm not trying to speculate on the fatality per se, just trying to add to the discussion of alti awareness over water Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #6 February 19, 2006 A four way went in at the SOUTH pole because of the same thing over the ice/snow tricking the mind ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hypoxia was their biggest problem. Since the South Pole is more than 9,000' above sea level and they had been flying for more than an hour, they got so hypoxic, they got stupid. Hypoxia is sneaky, so sneaky that many people angrily deny hypoxia even when everyone else on the plane witnesses them making silly decisions (i.e. walking to the open door of a Twin Otter without gloves, when the temperature at altitude is bitterly cold). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #7 February 19, 2006 Quoteit can be difficult to visually judge altitude properly with a wingsuit anyway Sorry if this is a dumb question (i've obviously never jumped a wingsuit), but why? I can understand that the "freefall clock" would be different, but why would the ground look different because you are in a wingsuit?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #8 February 19, 2006 true, very true. It could have been both factors or only the hypoxia , no way to know 100 % because all died, but you did bring up a good very point about the the dz being 9K above MSL. I would say hypoxia would have been a factor at play and rule it out,the mind will play tricks... ~ ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #9 February 20, 2006 QuoteI can understand that the "freefall clock" would be different, but why would the ground look different because you are in a wingsuit? Ground rush has a smaller effect since you are not rushing at it quite so fast. The "freefall clock" method is not just different but inaccurate, because a wingsuit jump from full altitude can be anywhere from < 60 sec to > 180 sec depending on how you're flying the suit. You can definitely fly a wingsuit head down.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 14 #10 February 20, 2006 Quotetrue, very true. It could have been both factors or only the hypoxia , no way to know 100 % because all died, One guy did survive, Cypress save. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #11 February 20, 2006 oops my bad, it's a bitch getting old. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #12 February 20, 2006 Quote as it can be difficult to visually judge altitude properly with a wingsuit anyway, Is this your conclusion after 17 wingsuit dives? If so, you have much work to do. Few skydiving disiplines allow one as much time and perspective to view the surface of our planet as it constantly creeps closer to us. Alti awareness is alti awareness. It's that simple. You either have it or you don't. The ground (or water) doesn't lie. It is where it is. Err at your peril. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #13 February 20, 2006 QuoteQuote as it can be difficult to visually judge altitude properly with a wingsuit anyway, Is this your conclusion after 17 wingsuit dives? If so, you have much work to do. Few skydiving disiplines allow one as much time and perspective to view the surface of our planet as it constantly creeps closer to us. Alti awareness is alti awareness. It's that simple. You either have it or you don't. The ground (or water) doesn't lie. It is where it is. Err at your peril. t Once again the voice of experience raises its ugly head and spits forth the truth. While water is deceptive when you are low, 100 feet or below, at or above pull altitudes it is not a factor. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites velo90 0 #14 February 20, 2006 QuoteAlti awareness is alti awareness. It's that simple. You either have it or you don't. Do you think alti awarness is something your are born with, or is it something your learn? QuoteThe ground (or water) doesn't lie. Do people with better eyesight have an advantage in alti awarness? Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #15 February 20, 2006 QuoteDo you think alti awarness is something your are born with, or is it something your learn? I'm no expert at anything. I think we're born with squat, and what we have is what we've learned. Some people feel more need to learn than others. QuoteDo people with better eyesight have an advantage in alti awarness? Again, I'm no expert, but I would imagine we cannot be aware of what we cannot see. (Or hear, or touch, or taste, or smell.) Alti awareness is something you can have for 1000's of dives, and can lose in an instant. You can have it at 7000 ft and lose it by 5500ft. Many, many of us (read senior/experienced/older) have lost it, and got it back in time to save ourselves, myself included. We're human and we make mistakes. Some of us are luckier than others, some of us develop better eyeballing technique but still wear visual and audiable alti's. Do what you need to do. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites droquette 0 #16 February 21, 2006 I agree that were born with squat but i also believe in natural ability... If I was born with perfect vision and you were born practically blind i think that if we both become skydivers i will have the natural advantage over you for altitude awareness simply by haveing better vision. Same goes for a basketball player who is 6'6 and can become a pro (or just play better) much easier than somebody who is 5'6 (Spud Web is an exception....) blues, danHISPA 72 ----- "Muff Brother" 3733 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DBCOOPER 1 #17 February 22, 2006 The only time you have depth perception issues are when everything in your field of view is the same with no contrast.Snow.water,sand even grass.The environment in Belize was such that it is very unlikely to have depth perception issues.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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riggerrob 558 #6 February 19, 2006 A four way went in at the SOUTH pole because of the same thing over the ice/snow tricking the mind ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hypoxia was their biggest problem. Since the South Pole is more than 9,000' above sea level and they had been flying for more than an hour, they got so hypoxic, they got stupid. Hypoxia is sneaky, so sneaky that many people angrily deny hypoxia even when everyone else on the plane witnesses them making silly decisions (i.e. walking to the open door of a Twin Otter without gloves, when the temperature at altitude is bitterly cold). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #7 February 19, 2006 Quoteit can be difficult to visually judge altitude properly with a wingsuit anyway Sorry if this is a dumb question (i've obviously never jumped a wingsuit), but why? I can understand that the "freefall clock" would be different, but why would the ground look different because you are in a wingsuit?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #8 February 19, 2006 true, very true. It could have been both factors or only the hypoxia , no way to know 100 % because all died, but you did bring up a good very point about the the dz being 9K above MSL. I would say hypoxia would have been a factor at play and rule it out,the mind will play tricks... ~ ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #9 February 20, 2006 QuoteI can understand that the "freefall clock" would be different, but why would the ground look different because you are in a wingsuit? Ground rush has a smaller effect since you are not rushing at it quite so fast. The "freefall clock" method is not just different but inaccurate, because a wingsuit jump from full altitude can be anywhere from < 60 sec to > 180 sec depending on how you're flying the suit. You can definitely fly a wingsuit head down.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #10 February 20, 2006 Quotetrue, very true. It could have been both factors or only the hypoxia , no way to know 100 % because all died, One guy did survive, Cypress save. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #11 February 20, 2006 oops my bad, it's a bitch getting old. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #12 February 20, 2006 Quote as it can be difficult to visually judge altitude properly with a wingsuit anyway, Is this your conclusion after 17 wingsuit dives? If so, you have much work to do. Few skydiving disiplines allow one as much time and perspective to view the surface of our planet as it constantly creeps closer to us. Alti awareness is alti awareness. It's that simple. You either have it or you don't. The ground (or water) doesn't lie. It is where it is. Err at your peril. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #13 February 20, 2006 QuoteQuote as it can be difficult to visually judge altitude properly with a wingsuit anyway, Is this your conclusion after 17 wingsuit dives? If so, you have much work to do. Few skydiving disiplines allow one as much time and perspective to view the surface of our planet as it constantly creeps closer to us. Alti awareness is alti awareness. It's that simple. You either have it or you don't. The ground (or water) doesn't lie. It is where it is. Err at your peril. t Once again the voice of experience raises its ugly head and spits forth the truth. While water is deceptive when you are low, 100 feet or below, at or above pull altitudes it is not a factor. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velo90 0 #14 February 20, 2006 QuoteAlti awareness is alti awareness. It's that simple. You either have it or you don't. Do you think alti awarness is something your are born with, or is it something your learn? QuoteThe ground (or water) doesn't lie. Do people with better eyesight have an advantage in alti awarness? Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #15 February 20, 2006 QuoteDo you think alti awarness is something your are born with, or is it something your learn? I'm no expert at anything. I think we're born with squat, and what we have is what we've learned. Some people feel more need to learn than others. QuoteDo people with better eyesight have an advantage in alti awarness? Again, I'm no expert, but I would imagine we cannot be aware of what we cannot see. (Or hear, or touch, or taste, or smell.) Alti awareness is something you can have for 1000's of dives, and can lose in an instant. You can have it at 7000 ft and lose it by 5500ft. Many, many of us (read senior/experienced/older) have lost it, and got it back in time to save ourselves, myself included. We're human and we make mistakes. Some of us are luckier than others, some of us develop better eyeballing technique but still wear visual and audiable alti's. Do what you need to do. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
droquette 0 #16 February 21, 2006 I agree that were born with squat but i also believe in natural ability... If I was born with perfect vision and you were born practically blind i think that if we both become skydivers i will have the natural advantage over you for altitude awareness simply by haveing better vision. Same goes for a basketball player who is 6'6 and can become a pro (or just play better) much easier than somebody who is 5'6 (Spud Web is an exception....) blues, danHISPA 72 ----- "Muff Brother" 3733 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DBCOOPER 1 #17 February 22, 2006 The only time you have depth perception issues are when everything in your field of view is the same with no contrast.Snow.water,sand even grass.The environment in Belize was such that it is very unlikely to have depth perception issues.Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
