Rdutch 0 #26 February 1, 2003 Will do see you then. I always like to see anything new, old, better ect. Thanks. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #27 February 2, 2003 >what is blade running? FLying through 'gates' on a ski slope after either a jump or a foot launch. > The reserves are just rounds... Yep, especially since paraglider pilots do not cut away from malfunctions. > Couldn't one wear a motorcycle back protector under their rig? I would imagine they could, but it's one of those things that requires people to think about it beforehand. Paraglider pilots fly much more reclined than skydivers so they are at greater risk for spinal injury; thus their back protectors are pretty advanced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #28 February 2, 2003 >The catapult was a bad design that didn't work at all. Hmm. It speeds up reserve deployments and has saved at least two people I know of who otherwise would have died from main/reserve entanglements. Not bad for a system that doesn't work at all. >But the skyhook is the fastest cutaway/deployment system out there for > now, no one can claim a 1.8 second reserve deployment. Jumpshack claims a 2 second reserve deployment time; the difference between the two from a full-stop cutaway is 13 feet. In any case, the reserve has a very significant influence on deployment time. I would think any system out there would have to be evaluated with identical reserves before a claim like ".2 second faster deployments than a racer" could be made. >Put yourself at 500ft with malfunction, with a catapult or a skyhook you > pick which one do you want? I understand if you haven't seen the > skyhook to decide, but you must know a lot about it to comment on it. I would want a reserve that I could deploy WITHOUT cutting away the main. In fact, I'd want a round with a huge PC in a free sleeve. Cutting away at 500ft is a very bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoby 0 #29 February 2, 2003 Quote>what is blade running? FLying through 'gates' on a ski slope after either a jump or a foot launch.That sounds really cool! Where do people do it? Any of the ski slopes in SoCal? Is it a summer or winter sport (or both)? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #30 February 2, 2003 Its usually only proswoopers that can do it since its a fine line between having too flat of a glide angle and getting to far off the mountian and making hitting your stopping area and decending to fast and having to dig out the whole time or crash into the slope. Imagine a mile and a half long swoop and the talent needed to be able to weave down the ski slope not hitting a tree, keeping your altitude at the right height and having enough speed to make it the whole way down and not crash on the slope you'll get the picture of a blade runner. It takes some one thats able to visualize the whole couse, know where they have to be at what height and be able to fly to that level. I've seen pics of them doing in both summer and winter.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #31 February 2, 2003 Quote>The catapult was a bad design that didn't work at all. Hmm. It speeds up reserve deployments and has saved at least two people I know of who otherwise would have died from main/reserve entanglements. Not bad for a system that doesn't work at all.Quote Since your an expert at the Catapult I dont want to argue with you. Oh well I will. You know of two people that lived because of the catapult. Directly because of the catapult or just a reserve deployment? I know of 2 that died because of it and Directly. There is a reason why no one used it, except a company that went out of buisiness and rebuilt and now won't use the system. The catapult was designed by a well known and different company that sold it, and in the testing stage it was proven to be dangerous. (The burble created by the bottom pilot chute caused the top chute to stall and fall, sometimes causing a loop in the system with the top pilot chute falling under the reserve bag and wrapping the whole thing up.) But the out of buisiness company used it anyway, because it is a great sales pitch, to people that dont know what they are buying. Also since you know so much about it, I wont say that the catapult wasn't designed at all to speed up deployment it was designed to counter the burble and offer a second catch point for the air offering a second oportunity for a pc to catch air, and deploy the reserve. Nothing about the catapult will ever speed up a normal reserve deployment.Quote ***>But the skyhook is the fastest cutaway/deployment system out there for > now, no one can claim a 1.8 second reserve deployment. Jumpshack claims a 2 second reserve deployment time, the difference between the two from a full-stop cutaway is 13 feet. In any case, the reserve has a very significant influence on deployment time. I would think any system out there would have to be evaluated with identical reserves before a claim like ".2 second faster deployments than a racer" could be made.Quote You obviously are talking about something you havent seen. If you have seen both you would definitely see what the systems are and how they are different. Jumpshack can claim a 2 second reserve deployment, and they do, Not every time, just that they have had them, on occasion, but that is just a deployment, and in high speed, any canopy will open faster with faster fall rate. The skyhook is opening canopies in 1.6 seconds from cutaway, not deployment. Glad to see you spent so much time trying to mention something you have spent so much time looking at, and obviously know so much about.*** >Put yourself at 500ft with malfunction, with a catapult or a skyhook you > pick which one do you want? I understand if you haven't seen the > skyhook to decide, but you must know a lot about it to comment on it. I would want a reserve that I could deploy WITHOUT cutting away the main. In fact, I'd want a round with a huge PC in a free sleeve. Cutting away at 500ft is a very bad idea.Quote Of course it is a bad Idea, no one wants to cutaway at 500 ft, but the truth is, it will happen, and if I was at 500 ft with a mal, I would want whatever was the fastest safest deployment system out there. Once again I am defending something I was just commenting on seeing at the PIA as my post heading said. But if you want to argue about it I can do that. Jump shack is my neighbor as well as relative, and both of them dont mind discussing what they have and dont have. Take some time to think about it, and heck once you see what the system is, If you want to compare Jumpshack, mirage. Javelin, Relative, whatever, Im sure that some manufacturer's will love the design some will hate it, think about all the manufacturers that wanted to use capewells because 3rings were so bad. Apples, Oranges, its all the same but the skyhook is so much different. It has its applications just as much as a Rsl, in some applications it is a great idea some it might not be. If you dont like it after you see it, feel free to make your point, but dont compare it because everyone that has seen it knows it doesnt compaire. But your the expert not me. Im just commenting on what I saw. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #32 February 2, 2003 >You know of two people that lived because of the catapult. Directly >because of the catapult or just a reserve deployment? Their main and reserve PC entangled; the catapult did its job and extracted the reserve. From rec.skydiving: "On October 20, 1997 Richard Chabannes at Skydive BG in Ohio, experienced a horseshoed reserve pilot chute and became the first documented save utilizing Fliteline Systems, Inc. catapult reserve deployment system. Richard was jumping a borrowed Reflex in which the previous packer had failed to cock the kill line pilot chute. When Richard deployed his main pilot chute it stayed in the killed position resulting in insufficient drag to open the main container. Upon recognizing the problem Richard immediately deployed his reserve. The spring loaded reserve (primary) pilot chute became entangled with the trailing main pilot chute resulting in a horseshoe malfunction of the reserve system. After the entanglement of the primary reserve pilot chute the catapult (secondary) pilot chute deployed the reserve with a minimal loss of time and altitude." The other save was observed by Rhonda Lea Kirk when someone borrowed her reflex a few years back; I forget the details. I _think_ it was due to a rigger error that caused a total failure of the main RPC, and the catapult deployed the reserve normally. > I know of 2 that died because of it and Directly. Which incidents were those? >The catapult was designed by a well known and different company that > sold it, and in the testing stage it was proven to be dangerous. The catapult was designed by Mick Cottle; I participated in some of the early tests. Which test proved it to be dangerous? >But the out of buisiness company used it anyway, because it is a great >sales pitch, to people that dont know what they are buying. Mick designed it because a reserve PC problem almost killed him years ago while he worked at Perris. You shouldn't listen to DZ gossip to get your info about gear. > I wont say that the catapult wasn't designed at all to speed up >deployment it was designed to counter the burble and offer a second >catch point for the air offering a second oportunity for a pc to catch air, >and deploy the reserve. Nothing about the catapult will ever speed up a > normal reserve deployment. The two PC's create more drag; I tested a Catapult system against a Racer PC and a few BASE PC's. The two Reflex PC's create more drag than the Racer PC (but less than a BASE PC, understandably.) You are entirely correct that the intent of the catapult was to increase the odds of a successful reserve deployment; a side effect is that drag is increased during a cutaway. >You obviously are talking about something you havent seen. If you > have seen both you would definitely see what the systems are and >how they are different. I have no idea how it works beyond your desription that it works like a sorcerer, and I have seen that in action quite a bit. If you would like to explain how this one works, instead of making clever sarcastic remarks, I'm sure people would find your description interesting. >and in high speed, any canopy will open faster with faster fall rate. The Racer tests were from a cutaway, not a high speed deployment. As in all tests done by a manufacturer, take anything they say with a grain of salt. (For a good story ask Bill Booth about John Sherman's Racer vs Vector test.) >The skyhook is opening canopies in 1.6 seconds from cutaway, not > deployment. It improved .2 seconds since yesterday? >Of course it is a bad Idea, no one wants to cutaway at 500 ft, but the > truth is, it will happen, and if I was at 500 ft with a mal, I would want > whatever was the fastest safest deployment system out there. Fortunately, if you find yourself in such a situation, you have the choice to cut away first or simply deploy your reserve. I teach my students to never cut away below 1000 feet; if they ever get that low, so many other things have gone wrong that just getting more nylon over their head is a better idea than cutting away and trying to get their reserve out before impact. Keep in mind that altimeters aren't even accurate to more than a few hundred feet; what you think is 500 feet may be 300. Using the cutaway handle at all at such an altitude is a very, very bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites weid14 0 #33 February 2, 2003 not to fuel the fire, but also from goggle.... http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Fatality+at+Crosskeys,+or+Reflexgate+group:rec.skydiving&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=358fa4b7.25776330%40news.atl.bellsouth.net&rnum=1 I think that's one that Ray is referring to (I had remembered the discussion on the wreck way back when). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #34 February 2, 2003 Yep, that's the one. I believe that when the first person examined it (I forget who that was) he claimed the catapult was a minor issue in the fatality (the main one was, of course, that the jumper failed to cut away from a mal before deploying her reserve.) When Mick examined it, I recall that he found the reserve lines tightly wound around the main lines, with the reserve bag trapped closed by the mess. No deployment system in the world will fix that problem. Fliteline had a report on the incident on their website, but unfortunately it's gone. The catapult can help launch a reserve when the primary PC fails, but can't work miracles. The above incident was a case where it could not. The jump from that to "it caused the fatality" is a large one, similar to not turning on a cypres and then blaming the device for the resulting no-pull fatality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #35 February 2, 2003 The "Skyhook" RSL gets your reserve canopy out of bag in about one half of a second after breakaway. That is up to 4 times faster that any other system. This results in a fully open reserve in about 75 feet, depending upon canopy type.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cpoxon 0 #36 February 2, 2003 QuoteFliteline had a report on the incident on their website, but unfortunately it's gone. #PR981114 FINAL CROSS KEYS ACCIDENT REPORT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #37 February 2, 2003 Bill, does it only open up this fast when you have a cutaway? or if I have a hard PC pull...and deploy the canopy, am I gonna break my neck cause it opens so fast? marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #38 February 3, 2003 Marc, The Skyhook is not a pilot chute, it is a connection between the malfunctioned main and the reserve bridle, via the RSL. In other words, it allows you to use your malfunction as a pilot chute. And why not? A Partial malfunction is the best pilot chute possible, because it is already deployed and ready to work for you. It will never pull too hard, because all malfunctions pull with the same force. A bag lock or streamer has very little surface area, but a lot of velocity. A line over has a lot of surface area, but very little velocity. So the resultant force is always the same. Therefore, the Skyhook DOES NOT make the reserve open harder, only faster. It also WILL NOT get in the way of a normal reserve deployment following a total malfunction. When the Skyhook is used, all partial malfunctions, no matter what type, get the reserve canopy out of its deployment bag in just under one half of one second. The best I have ever seen from a pilot chute alone, when using an RSL, is 1 1/2 to 2 seconds. It is absolutely impossible for a rig without the Skyhook to deploy a reserve anywhere near as fast as a rig with one. You simply have to see the videos to believe how fast this system can get a reserve over your head. It depends on what size and type of reserve is used of course, but Skyhook deployments with most sport reserves take only 75 to 80 feet. Several years ago, one manufacturer actually used a "base" pack job in order to be able to claim his container was better than the rest. The video clearly shows that, after a mediocre line stretch time of just over 1 1/2 seconds, the reserve canopy explodes open in under 1/2 second. A pack job like that would literally kill you if deployed at terminal. Don't believe claims like that. All conventional reserve container systems take about 1 1/2 seconds to get your reserve to line stretch when deployed right after a low speed breakaway. It doesn't matter whether the pilot chute is internal or external. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Rdutch 0 #39 February 3, 2003 Thanks for the update Bill, I only looked at the skyhook at the pia, and saw the video, I also witnessed the test jumps you did at my home Dz. I was waiting for you to put it on your website so people could see what it was all about, or talk to you personally about it, before I mentioned it. And of course your description will always be the best. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 54 #40 February 3, 2003 QuoteMarc, The Skyhook is not a pilot chute, it is a connection between the malfunctioned main and the reserve bridle, via the RSL. In other words, it allows you to use your malfunction as a pilot chute. What are the similarities and differences between Skyhook and Sorcerer BASE system? The idea looks similar. Bart Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skygod7777 0 #41 February 3, 2003 Quote What are the similarities and differences between Skyhook and Sorcerer BASE system? The idea looks similar. look at the first post, i think it says it is based off of that if not the first, i did read it on one of the above posts. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skygod7777 0 #42 February 3, 2003 Quote What are the similarities and differences between Skyhook and Sorcerer BASE system? The idea looks similar. QuoteIts called a sky hook, and it is based on the BASE reserve system used on the sorcerer i just went back and looked at it, it was the first. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 54 #43 February 3, 2003 Quote Quote What are the similarities and differences between Skyhook and Sorcerer BASE system? The idea looks similar. look at the first post, i think it says it is based off of that It also says it's different Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #44 February 3, 2003 > When the Skyhook is used, all partial malfunctions, no matter what type, > get the reserve canopy out of its deployment bag in just under one half > of one second. In the case of a total mal, is there a 'normal' reserve PC as a backup? And if so, what's the mechanism that disconnects the link between the main risers and reserve freebag? I always liked the sorcerer's system for doing that, but thought it was a little inelegant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crazy 0 #45 February 3, 2003 Hi Bill, Do you have any idea why such an efficient system is not widely used? Eric Fradet got the thing designed almost 8 years ago. A short while later it was adapted for the advance from parafun, but no other manufacturer offered it. Is it the cost of the patent? Or are there any drawbacks with that system? Why did it take you so long before deciding to implement it on your containers? Did you design your own system, or did you make only minor adaptations to fit your container?-- Come Skydive Asia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #46 February 3, 2003 Quote there was a 21sq ft xaos heh. just saw one of thoose little buggers today..helped get it out of a tree on the second "remote control skydiver" jump it made today.. loaded slightly over 1.2 that thing was really moving..just not answering any directions it was given...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChileRelleno 0 #47 February 3, 2003 Bill, where can I see this video or obtain more info? Is it available online anywhere? When will this new "Skyhook" system be available and will it be available as a separate piece of gear which can be installed on any H/C? ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #48 February 3, 2003 Hi Bill, Thanks for cutting through the BS. Bill Booth's Skyhook is a simplified version of Eric Fradet's system used on the Advance skydiving H/C and the Sorcerer BASE rig. Bill's contribution is a small, stainless steel hook that connects a main riser to the freebag bridle. If there is no main out, the reserve pilotchute stretches out the freebag bridle and disconnects the main riser from the skyhook. Then the reserve deploys like most other reserves. Even if they are no longer fashionable, RSLs would still have saved 2 or 3 American skydivers last year. Booth's Skyhook has the advantage of deploying quicker than any other type of RSL, making it more difficult to tumble through the reserve risers and interfer with reserve deployment. In an era when container designs are converging, that sly old fox named Bill Booth is staying ahead of the young pups by making serious innovations. In a side conversation, Bill Booth hinted that his Skyhook may help satisfy one of the requirements for a high speed reserve. Any current reserve manufacturer could build a high speed reserve tomorrow if he did not have to satisfy the "3 second rule" at the low speed end of the envelope. Since a Skyhook shaves about a second off the time to line stretch, the Skyhook makes it possible to design a reserve that opens softly at high airspeeds, but still deploys quickly at low airspeeds. When asked when his high speed reserve system would hit the market, Mr. Booth chuckled and replied "whenever Bill Coe builds the canopy." My hat is off to Bill Booth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,396 #49 February 3, 2003 >Bill's contribution is a small, stainless steel hook that connects a > main riser to the freebag bridle. If there is no main out, the reserve > pilotchute stretches out the freebag bridle and disconnects the main > riser from the skyhook. Then the reserve deploys like most other > reserves. So two questions on that (if you've seen the system in question:) One, how does the deploying PC disconnect the hook from the bridle? Two, how does extraction of that hook cause the reserve closing loop to come free of the reserve pin? (i.e. what "pulls the reserve handle" when you cut away) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #50 February 3, 2003 Bill, Without showing you the pictures it's hard to explain, but think of a system that uses the main to static line your reserve "directly" when cutting away, but "knows" to disengage when the reserve p/c is doing its job..... Nevermind. Mr. Booth has been here ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
billvon 2,396 #32 February 2, 2003 >You know of two people that lived because of the catapult. Directly >because of the catapult or just a reserve deployment? Their main and reserve PC entangled; the catapult did its job and extracted the reserve. From rec.skydiving: "On October 20, 1997 Richard Chabannes at Skydive BG in Ohio, experienced a horseshoed reserve pilot chute and became the first documented save utilizing Fliteline Systems, Inc. catapult reserve deployment system. Richard was jumping a borrowed Reflex in which the previous packer had failed to cock the kill line pilot chute. When Richard deployed his main pilot chute it stayed in the killed position resulting in insufficient drag to open the main container. Upon recognizing the problem Richard immediately deployed his reserve. The spring loaded reserve (primary) pilot chute became entangled with the trailing main pilot chute resulting in a horseshoe malfunction of the reserve system. After the entanglement of the primary reserve pilot chute the catapult (secondary) pilot chute deployed the reserve with a minimal loss of time and altitude." The other save was observed by Rhonda Lea Kirk when someone borrowed her reflex a few years back; I forget the details. I _think_ it was due to a rigger error that caused a total failure of the main RPC, and the catapult deployed the reserve normally. > I know of 2 that died because of it and Directly. Which incidents were those? >The catapult was designed by a well known and different company that > sold it, and in the testing stage it was proven to be dangerous. The catapult was designed by Mick Cottle; I participated in some of the early tests. Which test proved it to be dangerous? >But the out of buisiness company used it anyway, because it is a great >sales pitch, to people that dont know what they are buying. Mick designed it because a reserve PC problem almost killed him years ago while he worked at Perris. You shouldn't listen to DZ gossip to get your info about gear. > I wont say that the catapult wasn't designed at all to speed up >deployment it was designed to counter the burble and offer a second >catch point for the air offering a second oportunity for a pc to catch air, >and deploy the reserve. Nothing about the catapult will ever speed up a > normal reserve deployment. The two PC's create more drag; I tested a Catapult system against a Racer PC and a few BASE PC's. The two Reflex PC's create more drag than the Racer PC (but less than a BASE PC, understandably.) You are entirely correct that the intent of the catapult was to increase the odds of a successful reserve deployment; a side effect is that drag is increased during a cutaway. >You obviously are talking about something you havent seen. If you > have seen both you would definitely see what the systems are and >how they are different. I have no idea how it works beyond your desription that it works like a sorcerer, and I have seen that in action quite a bit. If you would like to explain how this one works, instead of making clever sarcastic remarks, I'm sure people would find your description interesting. >and in high speed, any canopy will open faster with faster fall rate. The Racer tests were from a cutaway, not a high speed deployment. As in all tests done by a manufacturer, take anything they say with a grain of salt. (For a good story ask Bill Booth about John Sherman's Racer vs Vector test.) >The skyhook is opening canopies in 1.6 seconds from cutaway, not > deployment. It improved .2 seconds since yesterday? >Of course it is a bad Idea, no one wants to cutaway at 500 ft, but the > truth is, it will happen, and if I was at 500 ft with a mal, I would want > whatever was the fastest safest deployment system out there. Fortunately, if you find yourself in such a situation, you have the choice to cut away first or simply deploy your reserve. I teach my students to never cut away below 1000 feet; if they ever get that low, so many other things have gone wrong that just getting more nylon over their head is a better idea than cutting away and trying to get their reserve out before impact. Keep in mind that altimeters aren't even accurate to more than a few hundred feet; what you think is 500 feet may be 300. Using the cutaway handle at all at such an altitude is a very, very bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weid14 0 #33 February 2, 2003 not to fuel the fire, but also from goggle.... http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Fatality+at+Crosskeys,+or+Reflexgate+group:rec.skydiving&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=358fa4b7.25776330%40news.atl.bellsouth.net&rnum=1 I think that's one that Ray is referring to (I had remembered the discussion on the wreck way back when). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #34 February 2, 2003 Yep, that's the one. I believe that when the first person examined it (I forget who that was) he claimed the catapult was a minor issue in the fatality (the main one was, of course, that the jumper failed to cut away from a mal before deploying her reserve.) When Mick examined it, I recall that he found the reserve lines tightly wound around the main lines, with the reserve bag trapped closed by the mess. No deployment system in the world will fix that problem. Fliteline had a report on the incident on their website, but unfortunately it's gone. The catapult can help launch a reserve when the primary PC fails, but can't work miracles. The above incident was a case where it could not. The jump from that to "it caused the fatality" is a large one, similar to not turning on a cypres and then blaming the device for the resulting no-pull fatality. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #35 February 2, 2003 The "Skyhook" RSL gets your reserve canopy out of bag in about one half of a second after breakaway. That is up to 4 times faster that any other system. This results in a fully open reserve in about 75 feet, depending upon canopy type.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpoxon 0 #36 February 2, 2003 QuoteFliteline had a report on the incident on their website, but unfortunately it's gone. #PR981114 FINAL CROSS KEYS ACCIDENT REPORT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #37 February 2, 2003 Bill, does it only open up this fast when you have a cutaway? or if I have a hard PC pull...and deploy the canopy, am I gonna break my neck cause it opens so fast? marc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #38 February 3, 2003 Marc, The Skyhook is not a pilot chute, it is a connection between the malfunctioned main and the reserve bridle, via the RSL. In other words, it allows you to use your malfunction as a pilot chute. And why not? A Partial malfunction is the best pilot chute possible, because it is already deployed and ready to work for you. It will never pull too hard, because all malfunctions pull with the same force. A bag lock or streamer has very little surface area, but a lot of velocity. A line over has a lot of surface area, but very little velocity. So the resultant force is always the same. Therefore, the Skyhook DOES NOT make the reserve open harder, only faster. It also WILL NOT get in the way of a normal reserve deployment following a total malfunction. When the Skyhook is used, all partial malfunctions, no matter what type, get the reserve canopy out of its deployment bag in just under one half of one second. The best I have ever seen from a pilot chute alone, when using an RSL, is 1 1/2 to 2 seconds. It is absolutely impossible for a rig without the Skyhook to deploy a reserve anywhere near as fast as a rig with one. You simply have to see the videos to believe how fast this system can get a reserve over your head. It depends on what size and type of reserve is used of course, but Skyhook deployments with most sport reserves take only 75 to 80 feet. Several years ago, one manufacturer actually used a "base" pack job in order to be able to claim his container was better than the rest. The video clearly shows that, after a mediocre line stretch time of just over 1 1/2 seconds, the reserve canopy explodes open in under 1/2 second. A pack job like that would literally kill you if deployed at terminal. Don't believe claims like that. All conventional reserve container systems take about 1 1/2 seconds to get your reserve to line stretch when deployed right after a low speed breakaway. It doesn't matter whether the pilot chute is internal or external. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #39 February 3, 2003 Thanks for the update Bill, I only looked at the skyhook at the pia, and saw the video, I also witnessed the test jumps you did at my home Dz. I was waiting for you to put it on your website so people could see what it was all about, or talk to you personally about it, before I mentioned it. And of course your description will always be the best. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 54 #40 February 3, 2003 QuoteMarc, The Skyhook is not a pilot chute, it is a connection between the malfunctioned main and the reserve bridle, via the RSL. In other words, it allows you to use your malfunction as a pilot chute. What are the similarities and differences between Skyhook and Sorcerer BASE system? The idea looks similar. Bart Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #41 February 3, 2003 Quote What are the similarities and differences between Skyhook and Sorcerer BASE system? The idea looks similar. look at the first post, i think it says it is based off of that if not the first, i did read it on one of the above posts. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #42 February 3, 2003 Quote What are the similarities and differences between Skyhook and Sorcerer BASE system? The idea looks similar. QuoteIts called a sky hook, and it is based on the BASE reserve system used on the sorcerer i just went back and looked at it, it was the first. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 54 #43 February 3, 2003 Quote Quote What are the similarities and differences between Skyhook and Sorcerer BASE system? The idea looks similar. look at the first post, i think it says it is based off of that It also says it's different Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #44 February 3, 2003 > When the Skyhook is used, all partial malfunctions, no matter what type, > get the reserve canopy out of its deployment bag in just under one half > of one second. In the case of a total mal, is there a 'normal' reserve PC as a backup? And if so, what's the mechanism that disconnects the link between the main risers and reserve freebag? I always liked the sorcerer's system for doing that, but thought it was a little inelegant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazy 0 #45 February 3, 2003 Hi Bill, Do you have any idea why such an efficient system is not widely used? Eric Fradet got the thing designed almost 8 years ago. A short while later it was adapted for the advance from parafun, but no other manufacturer offered it. Is it the cost of the patent? Or are there any drawbacks with that system? Why did it take you so long before deciding to implement it on your containers? Did you design your own system, or did you make only minor adaptations to fit your container?-- Come Skydive Asia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #46 February 3, 2003 Quote there was a 21sq ft xaos heh. just saw one of thoose little buggers today..helped get it out of a tree on the second "remote control skydiver" jump it made today.. loaded slightly over 1.2 that thing was really moving..just not answering any directions it was given...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #47 February 3, 2003 Bill, where can I see this video or obtain more info? Is it available online anywhere? When will this new "Skyhook" system be available and will it be available as a separate piece of gear which can be installed on any H/C? ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #48 February 3, 2003 Hi Bill, Thanks for cutting through the BS. Bill Booth's Skyhook is a simplified version of Eric Fradet's system used on the Advance skydiving H/C and the Sorcerer BASE rig. Bill's contribution is a small, stainless steel hook that connects a main riser to the freebag bridle. If there is no main out, the reserve pilotchute stretches out the freebag bridle and disconnects the main riser from the skyhook. Then the reserve deploys like most other reserves. Even if they are no longer fashionable, RSLs would still have saved 2 or 3 American skydivers last year. Booth's Skyhook has the advantage of deploying quicker than any other type of RSL, making it more difficult to tumble through the reserve risers and interfer with reserve deployment. In an era when container designs are converging, that sly old fox named Bill Booth is staying ahead of the young pups by making serious innovations. In a side conversation, Bill Booth hinted that his Skyhook may help satisfy one of the requirements for a high speed reserve. Any current reserve manufacturer could build a high speed reserve tomorrow if he did not have to satisfy the "3 second rule" at the low speed end of the envelope. Since a Skyhook shaves about a second off the time to line stretch, the Skyhook makes it possible to design a reserve that opens softly at high airspeeds, but still deploys quickly at low airspeeds. When asked when his high speed reserve system would hit the market, Mr. Booth chuckled and replied "whenever Bill Coe builds the canopy." My hat is off to Bill Booth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #49 February 3, 2003 >Bill's contribution is a small, stainless steel hook that connects a > main riser to the freebag bridle. If there is no main out, the reserve > pilotchute stretches out the freebag bridle and disconnects the main > riser from the skyhook. Then the reserve deploys like most other > reserves. So two questions on that (if you've seen the system in question:) One, how does the deploying PC disconnect the hook from the bridle? Two, how does extraction of that hook cause the reserve closing loop to come free of the reserve pin? (i.e. what "pulls the reserve handle" when you cut away) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #50 February 3, 2003 Bill, Without showing you the pictures it's hard to explain, but think of a system that uses the main to static line your reserve "directly" when cutting away, but "knows" to disengage when the reserve p/c is doing its job..... Nevermind. Mr. Booth has been here ---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
