Beginner in need of help!

[Telek 0]

Hello everyone, I just started skydiving last year and I can't wait until we get to start again (I'm a Canuck, so it's a little cold to jump right now). I've been going through the PFF/AFF course with a side order of a bunch of IAD jumps just for fun (when no instructor was available). I'm stuck on PFF/AFF level 4, I can't seem to keep my body stable and end up either flailing all over the place or in a massive spin. I've had video taken and it looks like my right leg hangs lower than my left when in the relaxed arch position. I should note that I was in a motorcycle accident 2 years ago and badly broke my left leg, so it's not as muscular as my right. In any case I've tried to consciously adjust them in flight to no avail. It seems that once I'm airbourne I have very limited ability to cognitively think, and I end up reverting to doing exactly what I practiced 100 times on the ground with.

Basically I was hoping that someone here may have some suggestions or hints on what I can do to improve my mental clarity in the air and stop this massive spin that I have going.

I've tried jumping into a pool and immediately assuming my relaxed arch position, and the same thing ends up happening. I've found in a pool that I can pull my knees inward and that seems to level them out, but I'm not sure this is such a good thing to do in the air. Comments?

Thanks for your help!!

[bmcd308 0]

>>my right leg hangs lower than my left <<

I think you know this, but your legs have to be symmetrical. Either raise your right leg or lower your left. I doubt that your motorcycle accident has much to do with it, since you should be able to move the other leg to match the one that does not have as much range of motion.

Get thee to a tunnel, where for two straight minutes, you can have someone hold you and correct your position. You will get the feel of falling straight that way.



Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[Telek 0]

Yes, I know you have to be symmetrical. The problem being that when I'm in the air I can't seem to get them symmetrical no matter how hard I try. I was hoping that someone has some advice on how to acheive this.

Unfortunately I don't think there are any wind tunnels near me. I'm in Toronto, Ontario, I think they're constructing one in Niagara Falls, but it's been in construction for years now and they don't seem to be getting anywhere with it.

[billvon 2,396]

1) As you probably know by now, only your instructors can give you solid advice on what to try. Their advice always comes first.

2) When I had a student that could simply not control his legs, I'd teach them leg turns. I figure if they are going to do something with their legs it might as well be the right thing. To practice, I'd make them lie on a creeper (on the floor) and put their feet on the edge of the couch. They would then practice turning their bodies on the creeper by pushing against the couch with the tops of their feet. That's basically the same motion you have to make in the air to do a basic leg turn. (In other words there's a lot more to it than that, but that works.)

Like I said above, though, go through your instructors before trying anything different.

[calledisrael 0]

i found that using a yoga ball and pilates helped me with this. it is all about muscular control and good body position. and lots and lots of practice.

life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all.
(helen keller)

[Telek 0]

Yes, my instructors don't really know how to help me either, they all agree that a wind tunnel would be ideal, but there aren't any available.

I like your idea about the creeper (been on that thing a lot) and the couch. I'll have to try that out.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks!

[Skydivesg 6]

I've helped a number of people with this problem over the years. First you need to know that anything you learn on this site needs be approved with your instructor before you try it in the air. This is imperative. If he says no then don't try it.
Remember this, our legs seem to be the dumbest part of our body, some of us have to work harder to have leg awareness.
Now before I can offer any advice I need more info. You say that your right leg hangs lower than your left. Does this mean you are in a left turn?
Can you stand flat on the floor and lift either leg so that the bent knee can come up to a right angle from your hip? Can you do this with your knee coming straight out in front and can you do this with your knee coming out 45 degrees to either side? Also how far apart are your knees when in freefall?
Are your instructors constantly giving you the knees together signal in freefall? Are they constanly having to give you the relax signal? And do you find yourself out of breath after opening? You say that in the pool you can level out your legs by pulling your knees inward. Do you mean closer together? How far apart are they in your normal body position?
One thing you should know is that their are quite a few leg amputee skydivers who have over come the built in turn problem so don't get too discouraged. Also the other advise about getting into a tunnel is the quickest and safest way to correct this; although maybe not the most econmical.
Sandy

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Remember this, our legs seem to be the dumbest part of our body, some of us have to work harder to have leg awareness.

I can think of at least 2 other parts of my body that old girlfriends and now my wife have called dumber than my legs, Sandy.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Quote

I'm stuck on PFF/AFF level 4, I can't seem to keep my body stable and end up either flailing all over the place or in a massive spin. I've had video taken and it looks like my right leg hangs lower than my left when in the relaxed arch position. I should note that I was in a motorcycle accident 2 years ago and badly broke my left leg, so it's not as muscular as my right. In any case I've tried to consciously adjust them in flight to no avail. It seems that once I'm airbourne I have very limited ability to cognitively think...

...Basically I was hoping that someone here may have some suggestions or hints on what I can do to improve my mental clarity in the air...

Someone up-post suggested some tunnel time and that is a great suggestion... but, frankly, from your original post which I cut a snippet of above... its the last part that struck me as worry-some. Skydiving is done by many that have physical challenges... blind in one eye... amputees... parapelegics (sp?)... and you don't have to be a super-jock-body-builder-athlete either to skydive... look at me... ... but one thing skydiving isn't is forgiving of folks that cannot perform mentally in freefall. Sure, sensory overload is normal your first sevearl student jumps... and/or maybe its just your choice of words, but if you cannot cognitively think while in freefall, maybe skydiving isn't for you?

I hate to take the wind out of your sails, but what I got from you post is that you have a larger problem dealing with the mental issues of skydiving then the physical that your previous accident has dealt you.

Good luck. Be safe.

[Telek 0]

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I go into a left (counterclockwise) turn. When the instructor is hanging onto me I am stable, and he can let go, but only for 2 or 3 seconds before I start turning. I don't have the video but IIRC my knees are about shoulder width apart, maybe a few inches more on either side. I have full mobility in both my legs, so yes I can do the 90 degree angle thing, it's just that my left leg has a few inches less circumference than my right, and there isn't much I can do about it because my knee is buggered. I'm a lightweight, 130lb soaking wet. I don't recall ever getting the "legs together" signal, but I've gotten both the "more curl" and "less curl" signals. I occasionally get the "more arch" signal as well. When I asked about my leg position and relative height he said that it's difficult to see when he's in front of me, but he said that they looked fine, so they can't be that far out of wack. My instructors say that my form isn't perfect but it isn't bad. In the pool my knees are normally about shoulder width apart (maybe a bit further), when I pull my knees inward I mean closer together so there is maybe 8" between the knees. Apparently my legs become symmetrical when I do that, but it's definitely further together than I see most other people jump. I am never out of breath once I deploy, just a little frustrated. Unfortunately there are no wind tunnels near me, I'm taking a trip to Paris (France) soon and I hear there is one close to there, maybe I can get some time in there. I don't get discouraged easily, I really hope that once I get the hang of it it'll become easy and I can get my license!

Thanks for the advise!

[bob.dino 0]

At AFF 4 I was still struggling with the massive dose of adrenaline my body dumped into my bloodstream every time I jumped out of a plane. My higher brain function, including my ability to deductively reason were pretty much suppressed. I was thinking at the level of a 6-8 year old, and if we hadn't rehearsed and re-rehearsed the dive on the ground, I doubt I'd have done all that well.

I'm no AFF instructor, but I wanted to share my experience. True clarity in the air is something I still struggle with.

[Telek 0]

I'm not worried about my mental clarity, as it gets better with every jump. Maybe a better way to describe it is this:

If I'm stable, I have no problem thinking and doing the routines that they ask for.

When I'm unstable, I seem to react instinctively (which is a problem, I know). For example I'll be sitting on the ground going "ok, if I start to wobble, I need to relax and make sure my arch is fine", "if I start turning, I need to try bringing up the leg opposite the turn", then once I'm in the air I end up leaning and going more spread eagle to try to counter the turn instead of lifting up my leg. It's at that point that I get the "curl legs more" and "more arch" signals from the instructor.

Honestly it may be nothing, because it's not like you really have the time to go "ok, let me stop and think about this for a second" as you're spinning out of control :P. In any case it's getting better.

I've discussed this with my instructors, and they say it's not uncommon to feel that way when you're just getting started. Spend 25 years with the body understanding that you put a limb out in the direction of your fall to brace yourself, or to whip a limb out in the opposite direction to keep balance... 6 PFF jumps with a total of 4.5 minutes of freefall isn't enough to trump instinct. :)

In any case, thanks for the concern.

[Telek 0]

Thanks bob, now that you mention it that's exactly the way that I felt at first. I too needed to rehearse dozens of times on the ground, and I felt as though I couldn't reason, only react. I'm a little better now, but definitely not at the "perfect clarity" point.

[Rdy2skydive 0]

I am not an instructor but I had the same problem as an AFF student. I didn't pass Level 3 until my 7th try and that was after a trip to the wind tunnel. I really understand your frustration.

A friend of mine was having the same difficulty during her AFF, but couldn't go to the tunnel. Instead, her instructor had her roll up the legs of her pants and jumpsuit to her knees so her calfs were exposed to the wind. Something about feeling the wind on her legs helped her to adjust them so they were symmetrical. It helped her find stability and she was able progress again. I can't really explain how it worked but I've seen this instructor use this method a few times and it's worked every time. Might be worth a try? Good luck.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Telek, Bob,
Fair enough. Just saying what I felt needed to be said... just my 2 cents... why did I bring it up... in part, because of this... years ago a friend of mine chased a student low... her AAD went off, she walked away, he didn't have one, he panic pulled his main, line stretch, impact, survived, remarkable, but lived out the next few years as a quadrapalegic (sp?) and recently passed. Now I'm not saying it was her fault by any means, the incident was a chain of events like all are, but post incident... pretty much every one who had jumped with her said something to the affect that her head wasn't in it and that she shouldn't be jumping, they figured she's quit because she wasn't progressing, but they didn't want to be the "bad guy" that brought it up and grounded her (take that with a grain, my analysis); it is possible that if she had been grounded, the chain would have been broken, maybe not, that's all.

Anyway... Telek... I don't know what your means are, but if possible, maybe getting yourself to where a tunnel is would help. Maybe you can make a road trip to Eloy or Perris.

Again, good luck, be safe.

[Skydivesg 6]

OK first off all, ZigZag has a point. You need to ascertain whether or not you have the ability to think in freefall. There is a big difference between not being able to think and having problems with leg awareness. If it's just leg/body position awareness....that can be fixed. The other is a troubling concern.... especially after this many jumps.
Assuming it's awareness. Go to a lumber store and get a 2x8 or 2x10 (narrower is better than wider) 9 or 10 feet long. Cut it so you have three pieces 36 inches long (more or less). Stack the pieces on the floor on top of each other so that you have a platform 36 inches long, 8 or 10 inches wide and 4 to 6 inches high. It would be best if you nail it together for future continued use. (This will also be useful when you want to learn to do leg turns.) I still use mine after 32 years. If you have a weight lifting bench that works too. It's just higher than I like.
Place this on the floor in front of a full length mirror or take a mirror off the wall and prop it up so you can see yourself and your legs.
Lay on it with your pelvis centered end to end and side to side. Your knees should be just barely off the side edges of the board on either side (no wider). Don't let your knees get below the top edge of the board. Raise your chest and upper body up so that only your pelvis and stomach area are touching the board. (This is where you want most of your arch.) Place your head so you can comfortably look straight out in front of you. Head up. Get in the habit of looking out in front of you (like the horizon in freefall). (this is the start of the famous mantis position) Position your arms so that your elbows are bent 90 degrees (favor them with your hands a little closer to your head rather than farther away). Don't allow your elbows to come in toward your rib cage (we have a tendancy to do this when we arch too hard in our chest). Place your hands so that your thumbs are level with your cheak bones. You should be able to see your hands in your peripheral vision while still looking straight forward. (I know many instructors will tell you to get your hands and elbows further back and imagine a string tied to your thumbs and running through your ears........I just prefer the position I'm describing) Your quads on your thighs may feel some strain. If so, you need to do some strectching excersizes. It also helps to strectch your arching muscles by placing your hands on the floor and pushing your chest up as far as possible while keeping your pelvis flat on the floor and arching in the small of your back. Now back to the body position: Pay close attention to where your knees are. Often times you will notice that one knee wants to drop below the other (in your case probably the right one) Don't let that happen. As you learn more about control you will realize that your legs give you the most powerful turn possible. Which means they can be causing your turning problems. [Rember this: "The knee that goes down is the knee that goes around". Meaning that if your right knee is down it will go around your center point causing a left hand turn. So you need to get it up or push down with the opposite knee to stop the turn or a combination of both.]
Back to body position:
Your knees should be bent a little less than 90 degrees. Don't let your feet get too close to your butt. In other words your feet and shin bones should feel some air on them if you were in freefall. Turn your board so you can see your legs clearly in the mirror (or better yet have a second side mirror) Do some heel and toe taps. Know where your legs, kness and feet are. While doing all of this make sure you are in the right position and then close your eyes and pay attention to what it feels like. Open your eyes - varify your body position - close your eyes - feel it - etc. Teach your muscles what it feels like when you are in the right body position. Muscle memory.
I know this sounds like a lot of effort but I also know it works. So does my young skydiving son. He's spent more than his share of time on the board in front of the mirror.
Before you go to all this work please run this post by your instructor for his approval.
Remember my way is not the only way and your instuctor may not like my way at all.
I'm also confident there will be differing opinions on this forum. In which case.......again, go with what your instructor says.
Hope this helps.
Sandy

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[dontbounce 0]

10 minutes in the --- wind tunnel -- will probably sove your problem. (not to step on Sandy's toes) See a pattern forming with the "wind tunnel" comments? It isn't hard to stay stable, you just need to get used to the sensation, and learn how to swim through the air. Either you will learn to straighten your leg, or you will be able to compensate in other ways such as body position. Either way, you should be "fixable".

If you can't master it in 10 minutes. Buy another 10 minutes a week later. You WILL figure it out... It just takes practice and determination (a hefty bag full of cash doesnt hurt either). :) The great thing about the tunnel is that you remove the fear from the equation and it is a lot easier to learn when you arent scared. Heck, it's fun too, as long as you dont mind smashing every part of your body against plexiglass over and over again... Heh heh!

Training how to free fall 50 seconds at a time (with a gallon of adreneline in your system) is a real bitch, especially if you wait days or weeks between those 50 second training times. Plus, you psych yourself out by thinking "I am going to go into some sort of spin and freak out" right before you jump.



If you can, go the the gym and get your "bad" leg ripped. It will help you here with this issue, but in other situations as well (like landing), ninja kicking people upside the head when they cut you off on your base leg, etc.

Cheers!

P.S. I did 10 minutes in the tunnel, and I have only minimal problems with free fall stability (need to keep my legs at 45 degrees). I may do it again. It can't hurt.

P.P.S. It has been my experience that if I remain ultra aware of my altitude, I don't get scared anymore. It is kind of nice. Not shitting your pants in free fall makes for a lot nicer canopy ride. I may not get much done up there, but I manage to control myself in FF and land softly which is pretty good for this stage..

Also, avoid coffee, soda, cigarettes, cociane, methamphetimines, ritalin, ephedra, epinephrine, albuterol inhalers, scary movies, bosses, bitchy women or anything else that gives you an "up", or makes you stressed out. Both "uppers", and "stressors" have the same affect on your body physiologically; they release adreneline into your blood. When you leap, if you are already at 70% of max capacity on adreneline, when you jump it will go to like 150%, and you lose your grip and freak out.. I failed Aff Level 1 : no pull/yard dart. If you are 10% capacity, then when you jump it goes to 80% (same increase, but ambient levels are lower) and you maintain a reasonable level of control of your thought processes. (at least for me, everybody is different).

Did you know strenuous exercise releases "noredreneline" in your system? It is your body's natural antidote for "adreneline", also produced by the adrenal glands on your kidneys... So try doing some pushups, curls or practice those ninja kicks right before your gear up and you will feel a lot better physically (butterflys, weak legs, dry mouth, sweaty palms). It also works AFTER the jump if you have problems sleeping that night like I always do...

When I jumped at Eloy today, I could have taken a nap on the way up if it weren't for the gassy bastards on the plane. ;)

• Quote

[dontbounce 0]

Quote

her instructor had her roll up the legs of her pants and jumpsuit to her knees so her calfs were exposed to the wind. Something about feeling the wind on her legs helped her to adjust them so they were symmetrical. It helped her find stability and she was able progress again.

Thanks for the tip. I will try that for my own benefit. Man, this internet thing is great!

[Eule 0]

Quote

I'm stuck on PFF/AFF level 4, I can't seem to keep my body stable and end up either flailing all over
the place or in a massive spin. I've had video taken and it looks like my right leg hangs lower than my left
when in the relaxed arch position.

Disclaimer 1: If you didn't hear it from one of your instructors, discuss it with them before you even put a
rig on.

Disclaimer 2: I don't have very many jumps.

Having said that, I had a similar problem. The thing that helped it a little was realizing that for whatever
reason, when my brain said "your knees are level", they weren't. So, I would get my legs to where I
_thought_ they were level, then lift up my right knee a little more, even though it "felt" wrong. This
tended to at least greatly slow down my unintentional turns.

The thing that helped it more was half an hour in the tunnel. Just like you, when I would tell other jumpers
of my difficulties, everyone and their cat would tell me "go to the tunnel". I balked a little at the cost and
a little due to hard-headedness - I figured I would "jump my way out of it". The cost appears high, but
most tunnels are priced at about one half the cost of getting an equivalent time in freefall by buying
normal jump tickets. Compared to an AFF jump, the tunnel time is usually one-tenth the cost.

There is a tunnel under construction in New Hampshire, but it won't be open for a few months, at least.
Your best bet is probably to drive to Detroit, Cleveland, or Buffalo and get a Southwest ticket to one
of the tunnels. Check the wind tunnel forum for lots more info.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[riggerrob 558]

Instead, her instructor had her roll up the legs of her pants and jumpsuit to her knees so her calves were exposed to the wind. Something about feeling the wind on her legs helped her to adjust them so they were symmetrical.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Good suggestion.
At a minimum, try jumping without socks so you can feel the wind on your ankles.

[riggerrob 558]

A wind tunnel might help.
I think the one near Paris is called "Aerokart" (sp?).

[riggerrob 558]

Between now and the start of the Ontario skydiving season, you need to find a physio-therapist and ask him/her to teach you a series of stretching and strengthening exercises to bring your legs closer to their old symmetrical configuration.

[mpuettman 0]

I had a similar problem when I began jumping -- either I'd drop one knee or, even more often, I would drop both knees and backslide something awful. This went on for many, many, many jumps. My problem was that I could not "feel" my legs in the air even though I had complete leg awareness on the ground. I tried lots of tunnel time, made lots of jumps, and got lots of coaching. The more jumps I made, the more frustrated I became, and soon the “failure mentality” began to take over my thinking. I was about ready to concede when someone told me to relax, quit trying to over-analyze in the air, and just fly where I wanted to go. It worked!

Once I stopped dwelling on every body part position in the air and just started concentrating on getting where I wanted to go, it finally all starting coming together. Even though I still do not have the ability to feel my legs very much while I am in the air, the leg muscles seem to work instinctively with my mind and eyes and I am now usually pretty proficient on getting to my slot quickly and maintaining stability.

The way I figure, by dwelling so much on the position of my legs, or arms, or whatever, I was always in a reactive mode rather than a proactive mode. And consequently, my mind was always a few seconds behind my body position.

I guess what I would suggest to you is to quit trying so hard (i.e., over-analyze everything in the air) and RELAX!

DISCLAIMER TO AVOID NASTY COMMENTS ABOUT MY SUGGESTION: This is what worked for me and it may not work for everyone. This is my opinion only. I am not an instructor.

[Telek 0]

First of all, thank you to EVERYONE for such help and awesome replies. I didn't expect this much attention this quickly.

Skydivesg:

That seems like a good suggestion, definitely better than the creepers. I might suggest building something like that at the DZ and maybe making an H out of it and putting wheels on it, to act like a creeper.

In any case, I don't think that will help. On the ground I have great leg control and alignment, however the problem is that on the ground you use different muscles than in the air. On the ground you're fighting the force of gravity to keep your legs up. If you apply the same amount of force when in the air (when your legs are "weightless") you will get a totally different response, at least that is what I found. It may be that if your legs are symmetrically built (muscle-wise) then you'll automatically compensate in the air symmetrically, but in my case since my left leg is less muscular it has to work harder, which would actually explain why the *right* leg is lower than the left (the muscle memory says to use less force on my right, so it'll hang lower). Interesting thought.

Unfortunately I can't do much workout on my leg because my knee is buggered, orthopedic surgeon suggested staying off anything that put a lot of pressure on my knees, so most leg workouts are out.

What I found to be a lot closer to the air was by going in a pool and balancing myself with a pool noodle or two directly under my pelvis. On the ground we could never see any problem with my leg position, however when I first tried this it was immediately apparent that my right leg was lower than my left. Again this isn't a perfect match to what happens in the air, but I think it's a lot closer than a creeper.

Having said that, I will definitely try your suggestion. I'm a bit of a handyman so I've got a pile of 2x4s kicking around, so I'll build a platform like you suggest.

You suggest knees bent to almost 90 degrees? My instructors have been telling me closer to 45-60 degrees.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[Telek 0]

I agree with everyone that a wind tunnel would probably be my best bet. However there aren't any around me.

Wind tunnels don't appear to be any more expensive either. A PFF jump with 1 instructor costs me $175 CDN and gives me 45 seconds of freefall. 2 minutes in the wind tunnel is about $60 CDN. I don't mind paying that, considering it's 1/3rd the cost of getting 1/2 the time where I'm not getting any hands-on help in the air.

Well, as fortune would have it, I am taking a trip to Paris soon and I found the Aerokart web site and emailed them yesterday, and they responded back today. They said that I can definitely come and practice and they have plenty of instructors who can give me a lot of help! It's about a 90 minute train ride North of Paris, which is a lot better than any solutions around here. So I think I'm going to give that a try! Unfortunately I don't know if I'll be able to make more than 1 trip there (I'm only in Paris for 5 days) but I will try.

Any suggestions for how to handle being in a wind tunnel?? :)

I don't have a problem with adrenaline except when actually in freefall. I'm perfectly calm on the plane ride up, we have rickity cessnas which take 20 minutes to get to 10,500ft so if anything I may just be overthinking everything before the jump itself. I always sleep well at night after jumping, probably because of a lot of fresh air :)