Brit Army DZ banned from teaching freefly

[Westie 0]

Check out this link to UK freely wheres theres a link to Arrse.com, A sort of unofficial Army Web site.

http://www.ukfreefly.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106

Edited by slotperfect to make the link clicky.
The military, it seems dont alow freeflying to be taught at there DZs? I suppose if moving with the times means interaction with people with long side burns, then its a fair move! (Sarc)

Another nail in the coffin for Brit skydiving.

13's unlucky for some, but not for old Fred!

[damion75 0]

Hmmm - I have my own opinions about ARSS.com - I think it does what it says on the tin. It's arse. Just lots of poorly informed whingers.

To set the record a little bit straighter... I have done three adv courses at nethers, and on one of them FS, FF and CF coaching were all available. That really isn't what the course is supposed to be about though - the written mandate for the course was to take Cat 8 guys straight off the basic course who had completed their RAPS through to Cat 10, now of course A licence and FS1. The only reason that there is any FS coaching beyond that is due to a lack of jumpers at this level applying.

Add on to this that it is a nil cost course, and as adv trg does not use up leave, the jumps are free, the coaching is free I think anyone getting a place on it and then complaining that they are not getting free coached jumps in whatever discipline they like may have an attitude problem.

Adventure training is under threat in the army anyway due to cost, so lets just be happy with what we have (because we shouldn't really even be getting that!) and not bring ourselves to the attention of the powers that be by complaining too loudly...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

I can kind of see their point.....well, maybe not. In the USA, the Army team (Golden Knights) do in fact have a section (the Tandem Team) that practice freeflying quite reqularly. They even pay for world-class coaching every year when they are out in Arizona for annual training. Still, there is just not quite enough impetus from the "big" army to allow them to set up a freefly-specific team (or teams) to train for nationals and beyond. Same for canopy piloting. There are some very good freeflyers and canopy pilots on the Tandem Team (jumping crossbraced mains at work even), but it's not their "real" job. Ultimately, the military teams are recruiting tools. As there are quite a lot of freeflyers out there, I think it prudent to field a team at Nationals. I am not quite sure why the UK military would be any different, therefore I find it odd that they would have a problem with freefly instruction on their dropzones.

The UK military has an entirely different setup when it comes to jumping. There is nothing at all here in the USA like Nethers or Weston. No place at all that is open every day specifically for military skydiving (and SL ops) that civilians can also jump at. I think you guys have it made in that regard. I was stoked to be able to make 8-pound skydives at Netheravon last time I was in the UK just because I was smart enough to bring my US military ID card with me on Holiday.

That said, those places are technically military dropzones. If they are saying they don't want "outside" instructors teaching freeflying on those dropzones, then I guess that's that. Am I missing something?

Chuck

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

The military, it seems dont alow freeflying to be taught at there DZs?

My interpretation of it was that the Army doesn't pay for free freefly training for soldiers. I've not heard of anything that would prevent a soldier or civilian for that matter turning up at Nethers or South Cerney and paying for freefly coaching like they would anywhere else in the world.

[riggerrob 558]

Lordy!
You Brits will whine about anything!
Free skydives and you still whine?

I caution you against pissing in your own corn flakes.


If the British Army does not want to pay for freefly coaching, that is their perogative.

My take is that most junior jumpers want to get into freeflying long before they have mastered the basics of belly flying. Many of the better freeflying coaches encourage young jumpers to master fall rate, tracking, etc. on their bellies before trying those skills in a sit.

[Andrewnewell 0]

Ok lets set the record straight, Seeing as Im the original poster on Arrse.com

Like you said Arrse is exactly that but not because it is arse, because everybody on there is usually seeing theirs because of red tape and poor management in the British Army, etc....

The original post was not about The Army not willing to pay for freefly coaching on a Advanced sports parachute course. Its was about, when the powers that be were offered free coaching to all students and staff members they declined because the people incharge of the course did not want to recognise the discipline! Why? Well its because freeflying is still considered a sub culture sport/discipline that requires no control and thus would be a bad influence on the students who should be learning demo landing approaches for the full two weeks etc.
The original post was made to highlight this negative and backwards looking attitude.

modern British Army huh? Cheers for that.

Quote

I think anyone getting a place on it and then complaining that they are not getting free coached jumps in whatever discipline they like may have an attitude problem.

Yeah why should they question it? Come on, most skydivers would jump, scuse the pun, at the chance to get free coaching if it was available. It seems to me that there was plenty of personnel who would have liked to received freefly coaching but because of old boy club attitude and the inflexibility of the center were unable to improve in their chosen discipline. I dont think the students were anything but greatful for getting a place on the course to improve their skills. Its just a shame that a offer of free coaching for persons attending is turned down because of short sighted, its my train set, attitude.

Im not saying that Adventurous training in the Army is bad. Look at the support snow/wake boarding and kite surfing gets from the Army for example. Unfortunately this type of attitude is not echoed within military sports parachuting circles.

Quote

and not bring ourselves to the attention of the powers that be by complaining too loudly...

Oh I like that. you must be a political officer? Hahaha. only joking! Heaven forbid someone actually complains. maybe if the powers that be took some of the suggestions and complaints into consideration, a more efficient way of doing things would be realised? Nah actually your right it is better to blindly follow?!?

Maybe I should have been a Rugby player? Then things might have been different!?

Oh and for the civies, Adventurous training is a little perk you get for putting your arse on the line, so all the bollox about dudes getting free jumps, well I think the boys bloody well earn it!!!!!

[Akey 0]

Actaully the brits have a free fall team called the red devils who also have links with civy street, so i cannot see why the army is against FF, appears a bit odd to me...

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

Actually, the UK miltary have quite a few teams: Falcons, Red Devils, the old Royal Marine CRW guys, the four-way team Quicksilva, etc. I have had the pleasure of meeting and jumping with a great many of them over the years here in the states.

Cheers,

Chuck

[Akey 0]

wow, i din't know about the falcons and the royal marine guys! What are they like compared to you average civy street skydiver?

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

The old Royal Marines freefall team were the absolute standard when it came to very-large CRW stacks. I was told that the team was disbanded some time ago, but one of the UK military guys on here will have to pipe in and confirm that. The Falcons are the demonstration parachute team of the RAF.

[dalee 0]

Hi yeah,

I jump with the Royal Navy Raiders, just to make it clear that the RN does still have a Display team.

See their website for more information about them and a fragment of information about the old RM Freefall team at this link:

http://www.rn-raiders.org/team_history.html

The RM freefall team were definately well known for for their impressive CF Stacks.

The current RN Raiders website contains all sorts of information about current Royal Navy Display Parachuting, though most of the content is aimed at the public from the perspective of an events organiser. We do have some members of the Royal Marines in the team and many of the current team members have contacts that were in the old RM display team.

Dave Lee

[damion75 0]

Don't worry Andy - I knew it was you!

I understand where you are coming from on the freefly coaching for Adv courses - after all I think you were coaching on the course that I referenced where it was offered, and that course worked very well... right up to the point where one individual arrived and decided that FF was 'not real skydiving'

That man (mentioning no names) is an arse. This is not a secret and pretty much everyone I think would agree with me.

I don't know why things on the adv course have reverted to where they were - perhaps because during the last two courses so much money has been spent on getting Solly and David from Majik over to gove free coaching, and then the PD factory team over to give free coaching and having spent that kind of cash they wanted to get their money's worth? I for one would be very happy to see multi discipline adv courses come back in the future.

The real problem however is not at Nethers - it is with those running adv trg and those that control the budget. At the moment nethers has to be whiter than white just to avoid closure to sports jumping - this is for the same reason that downhill skiing and battlefield tours are under threat. The money is running out.

Add to that the sort of mentality of more senior echelons who see almost all skydivers as hippie gluebag types and I suggest that that is why we should tread softly at the moment. Hell, otherwise we would be able to get C130s in at the weekends - that is only blocked by the paperwork munchkins at the MoD. There is no REAL reason for it.

I think things will change, but in any organisation as big as the army, run by people who have not been at the coal face in 20 years, change takes time. Not having a pay-per-coach freefly school at nethers doesn't help the FF cause at all though...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

That said, those places are technically military dropzones. If they are saying they don't want "outside" instructors teaching freeflying on those dropzones, then I guess that's that. Am I missing something?

I think this is being blown way out of proportion. As far as I can tell it is only on these specific Army Advanced Courses that FF won't be part of the program. It does not mean that the dropzone as a whole and the Army Parachute Association club is banning freefly

Netheravon dropzone has a growing freefly scene and if anyone, mil or civ, turns up at the weekend and pays their tickets they can learn FS, FF, W/S, CRW and anything else they could possibly want.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

well I think the boys bloody well earn it!!!!!

No perk or freebie is 'earned' so much as it's either a part of a job agreement (then it's not a freebie) or some kind of booster (then it's a freebie). I suspect any military operation only needs to teach those skills necessary for mission accomplishment (stability, altitude awareness, some freefall mobility, landing accuracy). So anything above and beyond that is a great freebie.

Entitlements are more in support of recruitment, public relations, morale. These have a place in support of mission, but certainly now OWED to any member.

Heck I work every single day in my job and they don't provide any type of skydiving training, or any hobby training at all. But I don't get upset about it. In any case, I hope you org does come around and give you more perks.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[riggerrob 558]

No perk or freebie is 'earned' so much as it's either a part of a job agreement (then it's not a freebie) or some kind of booster (then it's a freebie). I suspect any military operation only needs to teach those skills necessary for mission accomplishment (stability, altitude awareness, some freefall mobility, landing accuracy). So anything above and beyond that is a great freebie.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Good point!
Military HALO and HAHO jumpers do not need sit-flying or any other form of freeflying skills. At best, they try to fall flat, dumb and happy with their rucksacks, rifles and snowshoes.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Good point!
Military HALO and HAHO jumpers do not need sit-flying or any other form of freeflying skills. At best, they try to fall flat, dumb and happy with their rucksacks, rifles and snowshoes.

Thanks, and, the be clea, the point isn't a "quit whining" point to the original poster, I don't begrudge "uncontracted" benefits to soldiers, I just don't like entitlement attitudes. More power to him if they can convice their leadership that the free coaching is a cool thing to do for people they value.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

Military HALO and HAHO jumpers do not need sit-flying or any other form of freeflying skills. At best, they try to fall flat, dumb and happy with their rucksacks, rifles and snowshoes.

We're not talking about teaching military parachuting. We're talking about teaching normal skydiving to members of the military.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[skytash 0]

At Nethers and other JSPC dropzones there are usually two operations. One being the military courses, usually run during the week, falling within the JSAT (Joint Services Adverture Training) programme across all the services (hence Joint Services Parachute Centre). All the JSAT courses are paid for by the military and they can decide what they teach.

Additionally, at Nethers there is the Army Parachute Association (APA), which runs a mixed civilian/military sports operation. At Nethers they operate at week-ends and some Wednesday and Friday afternoons (usually by prior appointment). We sport jumpers are members of the APA and jump as part of the APA.

In the case of Solly & David and the PD factory teams visiting Nethers last year, these were APA organised events, not JSAT events. They happen to have been at the same airfield, using the same planes as used by the JSPC for its JSAT courses. If the military decides that it will not offer FF coaching at JSAT courses, we will just have to live with it. However that doesn't stop the sports jumpers and members of the APA doing FF, having top FF coaches come to vist etc.

Although I'm not military and can't do JSAT courses anyway, it's still a shame they don't cover FF in the JSAT courses.

tash

[nigelh 0]

UK Freefly you say!?

What an awesome website!!!

Early news is that Weston is going to be a Civvy operated club at weekends, and will still honour the military rates,

Also, i hear a rumour that a University club consisting mostly of Freeflyers, will be relocating to Weston, so if you want to come and freefly for just £12 per jump (plus maybe instructors slot) then Weston may be a damn fine choice of DZ!

Nigel
(Owner of UKfreefly.com and Weston jumper...)

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
Sponored by NZ Aerosports, CYPRES 2, Tonfly & L&B

Team Dirty Sanchez #232

[Scoop 0]

Quote

so if you want to come and freefly for just £12 per jump

Are you serious!? I shall be having to move soon then! Think ive found a new weekend DZ

[nigelh 0]

For Military, jumps are £12

Civvy jumps are £19
Hop'n'Pops are only £6!!!!!

Nigel

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
Sponored by NZ Aerosports, CYPRES 2, Tonfly & L&B

Team Dirty Sanchez #232

[freekflyguy 0]

Quote

Its was about, when the powers that be were offered free coaching to all students and staff members they declined because the people incharge of the course did not want to recognise the discipline!

I now work at Netheravon and will find out why Andy's generous offer was not taken up.

I must add that I am pleased to see that you made the offer. Considering that when I asked if you would like to come over to RAPA and coach FF on one of our advanced courses you made it quite clear that you wanted financial remuneration.

As for the military not allowing FF on courses that is incorrect, just ask Tim Porter and the students he coached on the very same advanced course at RAPA last year.

Buzz

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[Andrewnewell 0]

Cheers Buzz.

The reason for the offer of free coaching was made because I worked 5 minutes up the road, you know where. RAPA on the other hand is not in close proximity and a little out of my way.

Of coures I still have ties with the Brit Army/Artillery,So the offer of coming over to BFG to teach remains open. Would like to go back and see how the guys at RAPA are getting on?

All the best and I wish you luck in your new job.

[billyg23 0]

i pay a tenner per jump, in the uk....from 12 to 13 grand!

hehehehehehehe

----------------------------------------

I AM THE ATMOSPHERE HOOLIGAN

[Scoop 0]

Quote

For Military, jumps are £12

Civvy jumps are £19
Hop'n'Pops are only £6!!!!!

Nigel

I can dress up. Does that count?