Cessna 182 vs. Pilatus Porter

[johnny1488 1]

In ours we put 3 on the bench in the back facing front, one next to the pilot facing rear, 2 (or 3) behind the pilot and 3 next to them, on the floor all facing the tail.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[rmsmith 1]

The use of anything other than Jet-A would invalidate the hull insurance, a huge risk.

[gulaz 1]

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I know that blackhawks can run on pretty much any type of fuel in an emergency. I really don't understand how it can work, but the list of emergency fuels is pretty much every fuel the military uses or might have access to

Can't you legally put almost anything into a PT6 in an emergency? I thought that home heating oil, and diesel and stuff were on the list (time limited of course)

[dharma1976 0]

dont forget the insurance on the Porter its a total whore....

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[riggerrob 558]

Most skydivers wouldn't know that you don't put green fuel 120 oct. in a 100LL or 80oct. aircraft or 80oct or 100LL in a plane that should have 120oct. But is ok to use 80oct. in a 100LL plane or the other way around, and you NEVER put Jet-A in any of the above unless you want to crash in a short amount of time.

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Funny, but I was under the impression that you could burn the next higher octane gasoline if you ran out of the octane rating it was designed for.
For example, if your engine was designed for 90 octane, but you ran out, you could burn 100LL gasoline.
It is all about anti-knock additives and compression ratios.

[Peej 0]

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can anyone show me the seating arrangment in a porter

We've got a slightly bigger engine and air frame on ours so it seats ten.

We have two on a little bench next to the pilot, facing the tail. Behind the pilot we manage to get 5 people on a straddle bench, all face the tail. We put two on the floor, also facing the tail and one on a little bench right at the back of the plane facing the prop.

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[pilotdave 0]

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Funny, but I was under the impression that you could burn the next higher octane gasoline if you ran out of the octane rating it was designed for.
For example, if your engine was designed for 90 octane, but you ran out, you could burn 100LL gasoline.
It is all about anti-knock additives and compression ratios.

I really don't think this is really an issue anymore. I think 100LL can be burned in pretty much anything, and how often do you see any other type available? I think green 100 octane might be available some places, which can't be used in engines rated for lower octanes, but I doubt any of them are used for skydiving.

I've heard of avgas trucks being converted to Jet-A trucks, and dying the jet fuel blue, confusing fuelers. But is using the wrong fuel on purpose or by mistake really much of an issue anymore? Are there really operators out there putting something other than Jet fuel in their turbines?

Dave

[riggerrob 558]

Gasoline engines only burn gasoline.
If you try to pump any other fuel through them, they quickly go quiet.
If you run out of the fuel that the engine was designed for (i.e. 80-87 octane) you can burn the next higher octane (i.e. 100LL) for a while.
Switching octanes is only dangerous if you use a lower octane than the engine was designed for. For example, a (high compression) gasoline engine (designed for 110 octane) will "knock" (aka. dieseling, premature detonation) if run on 87 octane. Burning to low an octane also causes embarrassing quiet spells, but that is because of cracked pistons.

Diesels and turbines are a vastly different issue. They will burn almost any flammable liquid that you can squirt through the injectors.
You may have to change the injectors and adjust the fuel control unit and submit a ton of paperwork to the FAA ....
That is why you can operate a diesel truck on Jet A.
Similarly, Twin Otters (PT6A turbine engines) routinely burn heating oil in the arctic.

[pilotdave 0]

Right, but where are ya gonna find 87 octane to put in your 182? Is it still made? I could be wrong, but I thought 100LL replaced all those lower grades of avgas because it was compatible with the older engines, unlike the green (high lead) 100 octane.

I'm all for skydivers learning what looks right and what doesn't look right, but is this something to even bother learning about?

Dave

[riggerrob 558]

You do make a valid point Dave,

Since 87 octane avgas is no longer refined, there is little point in studying its subtleties.

For example: most Piper Cubs and Aeronca Champs were designed to burn 87 octane avgas, but now they burn 100LL or auto gas (ask EAA about autogas STCs).

I was just trying to clarify the notion that the alternate fuel for most aircraft piston engines is the next higher octane gasoline.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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But the porter carrys twice the meat and climbs like a raped ape with a -27 on it, 15 to 20 minutes to alti. 13.5 (load dependent)with 8 people.
Our older 182's take's 30 minutes (appox) to 10k with out phat ass's on board and hot temp's (air) will make it climb slower.

182 can be modified to have very fast climb rates, as well. I have seen 5 jumpers to 10K in 13.5 minutes in a 182, with a fresh (upgraded) engine and some other nice mods, as well as favorable weather conditions.

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[murps2000 86]

I know that blackhawks can run on pretty much any type of fuel in an emergency. I really don't understand how it can work, but the list of emergency fuels is pretty much every fuel the military uses or might have access to. Doesn't make it safe for regular use, but they'll run.***


True, it doesn't make it safe, but does point out that the consequences are much less severe if it is accidentally used. It doesn't surprise me that military aircraft can run on a variety of fuels, but I wonder about civilian turbines. Back in '93 or 4 when I was in A&P school, we had J-34s I believe, that were off an old p-2 neptune. They augmented the radials that were on it, and were designed to run on avgas so that two different fuel systems wouldn't be needed. We used 87 octane auto fuel in them when we ran them on the test stand. I'm not a practicing A&P, so I haven't really messed with any turbines since then (other than the occasional glance and smile when I exit).

[SkyPsycho 0]

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But if you put a 182 inside a C-5, it becomes really fuel efficient and climbs fast too!

Dave

one of the old pilots i flew with works down at dover afb, says when they are bored, sometimes they go out and drive golf balls in the c5a

_______________________________
HK MP5SD.........silence is golden

[jetap 0]

You have some fact and some fiction and are trying to mix it up. K-1 is not "illegal" to use in a commercial turbo prop aircraft. Neither is diesel fuel . Read up on P&W Service Bulletin 1244R21. Both aforementioned fuels are approved alternatives for JetA. It has some restrictions of which the most important is temperature. Since I don't know of many people jumping in -48 degrees Celsius ,it shouldn't be a factor. I don't know if you are trying to say that in order to use an approved fuel ,there must be a chain of custody. Not true. You can manufacture it in your back yard as long as it is made to the specifications outlined by P&W.You might have the fire marshall on you ass.It is true that Kerosenes and auto diesel is bit more corrosive than Jet A and therefore P&W requires you to do regular fuel nozzle inspections. The above mentioned fuel is approved for up to 1000 hours of continued use before an hot section inspection is required(Note 1 pg 17). If it passed ,youcan go on using it.

You mentioned storage and that Jet A needs special storage. Not true. All Kerosenes can grow bacteria in them. Again the only stipulation to the storage of Jet is that it can not be mixed with any other approved fuels. If Diesel or Grade 80 dye was used prior to Jet a ,the sytem must be flushed. Regarding filters .No special filters required. As long as it is "free from water ,sediment and suspended matter and consists solely of hydrocarbon compounds " it shall be suitable for use in aircraft turbine engines. If I can achieve that by pouring it through Kleenex ,I'm in the clear.

The only time that you are technically breaking the law is when you don't pay your taxes. All these fuels are taxed on different levels. Farm Diesel can be used in crop dusters tax free ,since it's a agricultural application. Jet a has an higher emissions tax than auto gas etc. Therefore. If you want to use K-1 ,just make sure you pay the appropriate taxes

Hull insurance goes up.Hmmm Never heard of that since it is an approved fuel. But again ,insurance companies will use anything to raise the premium

The biggest misconception is that the FAA regulates fuel. In a way it is true since they enforce the law that requires you to operate an aircraft within the limitation and specification set forth by the manufaturer. Well,P&W is the manufacturer and they said I can use it.

I wish I can use K-1. It has a Higher BTU factor than JetA ,thus using less fuel for the same power. It has more lubricant (oil) in it and do not always burn that clean which makes for dirty airplanes ,but some summer and winter additives will do the same.

Just my two cents

[stratostar 5]

Thanks for the clarification.
What I posted is how it was explained to me and others by the FAA and it was a lot to take in , in one meeting.
And we all know how one inspector interprets
the regs can vary widely from another, after all their here to help.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[PhreeZone 14]

"We're not happy till your not happy"

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[stratostar 5]

Yea their good at making me not happy, indy fsdo can be real pricks depending on who you get.
But I guess it that way every where.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo