The Kansas City Skydiving Center, What Will Be The Affect?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Bottom line is this.If someone does not want something to happen they can come up with a million reasons why it should not happen.
As to the post about all of the DZs going out of business.It would be very unlikely for the new DZ to cause the other two to shut down and then go out of business itself.If it did someone would start a new one the next week.This same thing has happened for years and we are all still skydiving.

[skybytch 259]

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What is expected of Life Flight as far as time delay between getting a call and lifting off, and would they be expected to wait for all the skydivers to get down (I would think so).

Why would they have to stay on the ground from the time jumpers exit until they land? Helicopters can take off and depart in any direction they choose AFAIK. As long as the helicopter doesn't fly through the skydiver's pattern or landing area while parachutes are using it (when canopies are at or below 1000 feet) it shouldn't be an issue.

I used to jump at a dz located on an airport that had an active helicopter pilot training school. Even better, the student pilots were Japanese and spoke very limited English. Our landing area was next to the primary taxiway and across the tarmac from the helicopter school's hangar. Can't count the number of times there was a helicopter taxiing, taking off or landing beneath me while I was under canopy. They were always out of my way before I entered the landing pattern.

There shouldn't be any conflict between helicopter operations and skydiving operations as long as both the jumpers and the helicopter pilots remain aware of each other.

[HippieCain 0]

Yeah, the tandem question was rhetorical to illustrate the point of the question about the lag time of LifeFlight. And I'm not saying that I'm opposed to this dz. I like the idea of weekday jumps. I think it's going to be an interesting couple of seasons around here. Again, I would just hate to see all the DZs in the area be gone in a few years.

Fuck The Details

[JoeMike 0]

Joe,

I was wondering the same thing. The fact is that it takes a few minutes for the Helicopter to get going from the time its dispacthed to the time its airborne. Within this 2-3 minute time frame I believe all jumpers could be on the ground. If the plane is on jump run and the Helicopter is in motion, exiting the aircraft "might" and thats pushing it, have to wait. Its going to be a mutual communication relationship between both the DZ and the Helicopter. Look at some of the larger DZs in FL, they operate with all kinds of avaition traffic. Lear jets, helicopters, single-multi engine planes and everyone for the most part lives in harmony.

Now the extreme end of the spectrum is that the Helicopter wont wait to leave until all jumpers are on the ground, and wont have good communication. If you have ever been to Skydive Chicago and jumped out of the airwolf looking helicopter, you know what I mean. That pilot would take off with canopies in the air flying all over the LZ. I was quit shocked when I witnessed the helicopter lift off within 50-100 ft from open flying parachutes....SCARY

Regardless, you right the DZ is going to open. Now I just need to buy new gear.

L8R, JM

[wmw999 2,120]

Note that the new DZO was asking in a thread about other airports with EMS -- he's trying to find out, hopefully to talk to them, and make sure it works.

Sounds like research to me.

I've never even been to KC, so I have absolutely no skin in this game

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[justthefacts 0]

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Note that the new DZO was asking in a thread about other airports with EMS -- he's trying to find out, hopefully to talk to them, and make sure it works.

Sounds like research to me.

I've never even been to KC, so I have absolutely no skin in this game

Wendy W.

Exactly...and as we all know each airport is set up and configured differently. What works in one case, does not necessarily in another.

I have been to this airport and in this instance, the helicopter is surrounded by hangars on almost three sides and has a very limited take-off airspace as it is. This does not take into account skydivers landing 200-600ft away. It may be challenging to find a situation similar to this that has worked long-term.

[davelepka 4]

What do you kow about the helicopter operation? Do you have any information about their average time from recieving a call to launch?

I'm pretty sure that when Lifeflight recieves a call, the piltos will review the call location, double check the weather, then make a go/no go decision. If it is a go, then they board the heli, start the engine, do a systems check, and go.

If you figure on the average time for a tandem or student to go from exit to landing (5 maybe 6 min) then have the Lifeflight people call the DZ when they are inside of that time to launch. If there are no jumper in the air, then all jump ops are on hold until the helo launches. It's called a go around, and it's a good chance to give your customers another 1000ft.

It's not that complicated. I'm guessing this is not a busy airport, and the helo guy are used to having the run of the place. With a little planning and cooperation, there's no reason this can't work.

For gods sake look at Skydive Dallas. When I was there the AC was climbing and dropping jumpers inbetween the approach paths for paralell runways at DFW. You could see the big jets on both sides of the plane on the way up and the way down (I think the jets were around 8k at that point). They do that every day.

[riggerrob 558]

I'm pretty sure that when Lifeflight recieves a call, the pilots will review the call location, double check the weather, then make a go/no go decision. If it is a go, then they board the heli, start the engine, do a systems check, and go.

If you figure on the average time for a tandem or student to go from exit to landing (5 maybe 6 min) then have the Lifeflight people call the DZ when they are inside of that time to launch. If there are no jumper in the air, then all jump ops are on hold until the helo launches. It's called a go around, and it's a good chance to give your customers another 1000ft.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Air traffic controllers give medical flights priority over almost everyone else in the air. If a jump plane calls two minutes before jump run (as all good jump pilots do) and EMS wants to launch NOW, then ATC will give EMS first priority. The jump plane will have to orbit and enjoy it. The extra cost in fuel is a tiny price to pay when it comes to keeping the neighbors happy.

So the priority goes

1. aircraft in distress
2. medical flights
3. aerial firefighters (aka. waterbombers)
etc.

The same rules apply in uncontrolled airspace, the onus just shifts to pilots to provide their own separation from other aircraft.

[riggerrob 558]

Telling skydivers to land away from helicopters works 99% of the time.

The worst case scenario occurred in England more than a decade ago. A military helicopter was warming up (rotors turning) at the far end of the airfield from the parachute school. Static-line students were told to land at the correct end of the airfield. All but one student landed at the correct end of the airfield.
Unfortunately, one female student fixated on the helicopter and landed on it. She died and she wrecked the helicopter.

Now the British Parachute Association insists that students not be allowed to jump while helicopter rotors are turning.

[wmw999 2,120]

And I'll just bet that if they communicate, then EMS will tell the pilot/DZ when a call is coming in, and they're doing that evaluating etc. so that there are no suprises, and so that the DZ can do whatever is needed to make that relationship work.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[davelepka 4]

Thats what I'm saying. I'm sure that the DZ pilot and the helo pilot will be drinking coffee together in between hops, and when the time comes, the DZ pilot will do what he can to clear the way for his buddy who's involved in something a little more important than jump ops.

I just noticed that 'justthefacts' works for a DZ in the area. Maybe it's 'justselectedfacts'?

[justthefacts 0]

I am not here to argue about private grass strip airports with international airports and jets nearby. This is completely off the issue. I am not an air traffic controller and have never claimed to be such. I am simply pointing out that emergency(not flight school) helicopter operations are a unique aeronautical activity that require certain parameters. If anyone wants to speak with authority on this issue be familiar with this airport situation and don't make irrelevant comparisons. I am about to stop posting because of the need non -local people have to comment about a situation that they have done no research on. The lifeflight has stated the first incursion they have with either crowd control (there are no barriers around their helicopter) or with the skydivers and airspace they will relocate their operations. They(the professional pilots) consider this to be a serious situation that they cannot compromise on because of their liability to the critically ill and wounded for the sake of our recreational sport. No skydiving center can guarantee they will not interfere with these operations. They may be able to legally strong-arm their way into the airport but the community does not want to see the lifeflight leave.

[Ron 7]

I find it funny you work for a DZ in the area and claim to just want facts.

Trespassing while in an emergency will not get you into trouble.

Sounds to me like you are starting shit because you are scared of a new DZ in the area.

This is funny :"They(the professional pilots) consider this to be a serious situation that they cannot compromise on because of their liability to the critically ill and wounded for the sake of our recreational sport"

Its a common falicy used when you don't have a logical argument....."Think of the ill!"

It's called, Apeal to Emotion. Hoping that by trying to stir people emotions you get an illogical response.

So far you have:
1. Threatend that people who land off will get thrown in jail.

2. Appealed to the dangers of being in the area with helicopters...Tried to instill fear.

3. Tried to use emotion about ill people dying due to some people trying to have fun.

The best part is you came on here and claimed than no one outside the area should bother to care...But you came on a World Wide forum and tried to plead/mislead your case.

That ladies and gentelman is IRONY

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[justthefacts 0]

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Thats what I'm saying. I'm sure that the DZ pilot and the helo pilot will be drinking coffee together in between hops, and when the time comes, the DZ pilot will do what he can to clear the way for his buddy who's involved in something a little more important than jump ops.

I just noticed that 'justthefacts' works for a DZ in the area. Maybe it's 'justselectedfacts'?

Anyone wanting to know who I am can pm and ask...I have already revealed my identity to several legitimately involved users on here

[davelepka 4]

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I am simply pointing out that emergency(not flight school) helicopter operations are a unique aeronautical activity that require certain parameters.

Please factually inform me of these parameters, how they pretain to DZ operations, and more specifically, how the meeting of the DZO and helo ops manager revealed that co-existance on that airfield would be problematic.

Don't you have that informations? Not to worry, it's OK if you don't. I don't have that info either, which is why the two of us are SPECULATING.

Don't get pissy becasue mine makes more sense than yours.

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They(the professional pilots) consider this to be a serious situation that they cannot compromise on because of their liability to the critically ill and wounded for the sake of our recreational sport. No skydiving center can guarantee they will not interfere with these operations.

Nobody ever suggested that the helo ops would be put on hold for skydiving ops. It was illustrated how the skydiving ops could stand down and allow the helo ops priority clearance. In fact, it was shown how easily the DZ could accomadate this.

As for a gurantee they will not interfere, they can gurantee to do everything in their power not to interfere. Just like a pilot landing at this airport cannot guarantee he won't have a main gear collapse and veer off the runway into the parked helo, the DZ cannot prevent unforseen circumsatnces from occuring. Nobody can.

Now stand up, un bunch your panties, and open your mind to idea that a better DZO may open a DZ in your area. You'll be jumping there soon anyway.

[skydived19006 4]

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Now stand up, un bunch your panties, and open your mind to idea that a better DZO may open a DZ in your area. You'll be jumping there soon anyway.

Now that's a bit of a shot don't you think?

You propose that “the new guy” is a better DZO, he’s never even ran a DZ. And I doubt that you know any of the involved parties? I also doubt that justthefacts will be jumping at “The Kansas City Skydiving Center”, and why would assume that he wears panties?

Have we touched on the “name issue”? Skydive Kansas City has been in place for quite some time, “The Kansas City Skydiving Center” (aka New Guy) proposed to open April 1. Seems Larry Hill sued and won on a similar issue, and is currently suing the Skyride boys for name infringement among other things.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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The lifeflight has stated the first incursion they have with either crowd control (there are no barriers around their helicopter) or with the skydivers and airspace they will relocate their operations.

Sounds like playground politics to me.I didn't get my way so I'm taking my ball home.Or in the words of Cartman"Screw you guys I'm going home.



.

[Ron 7]

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Now that's a bit of a shot don't you think?

You propose that “the new guy” is a better DZO, he’s never even ran a DZ

I took it as, "Open your mind to the idea that a better DZO could run a better DZ than what they have now". Not that the guy is better, but that he might be. Since he has not owned a DZ before none of us know if he is better or not.

So while Dave can't say he will be better, nobody can claim he will not be better either. So the thought of keeping an open mind is a good one....Unless you don't want change, which is a pretty common reaction.

But still fear of change will not make the change not happen.

The better DZ will win out. And that could be either DZ. If there was no competition in this sport we would all be jumping surplus military gear and jumping 172's.

If the new DZ starts drawing the jumpers away, then the other DZ's need to meet the challenge.

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Have we touched on the “name issue”? Skydive Kansas City has been in place for quite some time, “The Kansas City Skydiving Center”

Fair question. I am not so sure I have a problem with it. But that is just my opinion. Both names are different and both names describe the conpany and location. Its not like having "Skydive City" and "The Skydiving City" next to each other.

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Seems Larry Hill sued and won on a similar issue, and is currently suing the Skyride boys for name infringement among other things.

Those are two different issues. One is a legitimate DZ using a name close to yours that descibes what you do and where you do it. The other case is a fake DZ using a name close to yours to lure business from your area away from you. Small difference, but an important one. If the SKC wants to sue, I would support his right.

Funny story...When Skydive City came to Zhills, peple said it would ruin skydiving in Zhills. It didn't, and in fact a lot of people would say it is better than it ever was before.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[jdthomas 0]

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"I am not here to argue"

Then what are you doing here? Seems you want to argue something, what that is I have yet to understand.



"They may be able to legally strong-arm their way into the airport but the community does not want to see the lifeflight leave."

In what manner did "they" strong arm themselevs into this airport? can you point out facts that will show this to be true tactics?


Joe

www.greenboxphotography.com

[J.Mark 0]

Population of KC-1.2 Million
DZ's in KC- 5
Ratings new dzo holds-one (coach)
Experience running DZ-none
Experience running a business-none
Turbines that have tried and failed in KC-many

Not enough population
To many DZ's
Not enough experience

not to rain on everyones parade but anyone that knows the business can see that this DZ will not last long so the other DZ's will have to tighten the belt for a season. I'm all for capitalism and competition but some common sense is in order here. The thing that is being used to bring all the new jumpers is also the reason it won't survive in KC. Bigger isn't always better. This is just the opinion of someone watching from the outside and wondering "What the hell was he thinking"

This new DZO might be a great kid but he's in over his head. If you are looking for some honest advice call me.

[Ron 7]

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Population of KC-1.2 Million
DZ's in KC- 5
Ratings new dzo holds-one (coach)
Experience running DZ-none
Experience running a business-none
Turbines that have tried and failed in KC-many

Not enough population
To many DZ's
Not enough experience

All are vaild concerns or questions.

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Population of KC-1.2 Million
DZ's in KC- 5

1.2 million is enough to support ONE big DZ. Yes the smaller DZ's will fold. Thats life they can either compete or fold.

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Ratings new dzo holds-one (coach)

You do not have to hold a certification to run a business. It sure would help, but it is not needed as long as the guy listens to the people he hires and can tell crap from fact. We have plenty of people on these borads that claim they don't need "X" to tell "Y". It would help, but it is not always needed.

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Experience running DZ-none
Experience running a business-none

Like I said before you don't have to know everything if you listen to advisors. Some business that were never gonna work out did really well, and the people running it may not have done well before. FedEx is a great example.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do like the idea of people having better places to jump. Not saying this will be better, but its hard to say it will not be with any degree of certainty.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[justthefacts 0]

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Population of KC-1.2 Million
DZ's in KC- 5
Ratings new dzo holds-one (coach)
Experience running DZ-none
Experience running a business-none
Turbines that have tried and failed in KC-many

Not enough population
To many DZ's
Not enough experience

not to rain on everyones parade but anyone that knows the business can see that this DZ will not last long so the other DZ's will have to tighten the belt for a season. I'm all for capitalism and competition but some common sense is in order here. The thing that is being used to bring all the new jumpers is also the reason it won't survive in KC. Bigger isn't always better. This is just the opinion of someone watching from the outside and wondering "What the hell was he thinking"

This new DZO might be a great kid but he's in over his head. If you are looking for some honest advice call me.

Finally, someone who can speak with authority...if anyone knows something about the economics of turbines in Missouri its this guy

[SwampGod 0]

I can't speak for Kansas City, but I would like to speak for skydiving. For there seems to be a lot of effort going into tearing the sport down, literally handing negative ammo over to those who would create more problems for the sport AS A WHOLE.

On that note, I would like the public to hear that the sport is mature enough to handle the problems detailed here. Each of the potential conflicts has a rational solution, already mentioned in this thread (communication between DZ and heli pilots, etc).

On the note of whether the area can support a turbine DZ, time will tell. But in this case, I believe that will be more dependent on the actions of ALL the DZs in question, and not the population of the area.

In my humble opinion, 1.2 million people is enough to keep a single turbine AND 2 Cessnas going. Whether these planes are at 3 airports or 1 is up to y'all.

There are 3 Otter DZs (and a couple of Cessna DZs) near Boston to the west and north. I'm not counting the DZs to the south, as they could be drawing on the population of Providence, RI, or even New York. Either way, the population comparison is more than fair.

The DZ furthest north draws a very large percentage of its business from the very unpopulated states of Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont. How? A healthy marketing budget, and full-time commitment to spreading the good word. AND keeping the fun jumpers happy, as that's at the core. That Super Otter keeps on hummin'.

It's unfortunate that it is assumed there are a finite number of tandem students in your area. Not only can effective marketing increase the number of students, but did anyone stop to consider the fact that more students beget more students? If you play your cards right, the buzz at one DZ can help all the DZs in the area.

If everyone fights over a small pie, someone is indeed going to starve. But if some of this negative energy was converted into productive marketing, the pie is going to get bigger.

New England isn't all love and roses, but recent years have seen -- first acceptance of the fact that competition does exist -- second acceptance that no-one wins when skydivers bash skydivers. There have been shared ad campaigns (to advertise SKYDIVING), and DZOs are even coordinating their events calendars to not step on each other's toes. This isn't some "make love not war" shit... it's just business owners realizing that no-one wins when energy is spent dragging the other guy down in an effort to make yourself feel better. As in, it hurts the bottom line. For this lesson didn't come easy... as soon as one DZ starts ramping up the buzz, the others have to follow suit. Sink or swim, they say.

Of course no two situations are the same, but surely there is something in what I've said that is relevant to your situation. Only you know that for certain.

Those are my facts.

-eli

[Andy9o8 0]

Your post gets my vote for the most sensible one in the thread so far.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Well said.I wish Atlanta would figure this out.Oh course we have some people down here that would never play right.


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