I believe there are laws on the books for non-powered types of avaition. i.e. balloons, gliders, parachutes. If you unintentionally land on a persons land they can call the police, and in fact local police may cite you for trespassing. Most local police officers aren't widely versed in every small law on the books. They leave it up to the judge to interpret the incident as he/she sees appropriate for the incident. But under federal law I believe there are exemptions for such incidents. The balloon pilots are well aware of these laws as they frequently land on private property, you don't see any of them going to jail for trespassing do you? Ask the USPA, that should settle the issue. 
CDRINF 1
Ahhh, seeing people argue about skydiving while I sit in Iraq and am not able to jump is like watching two fat men argue about whether to eat prime rib or filet mignon.
I jump in the KC area (when I'm home) and am on the MRVS staff, so call me biased if you want, but here's my take, which is similar to Gary's:
I don't wish failure on anyone. I wish the new DZO's good luck in a spirit of furthering all skydiving. I'll even stop by the new DZ and make a jump or two.
The fact is, however, that starting a business is a lot harder than establishing a web site. I see a lot of promises being made before they have flown their first load. You don't just show up the first day and open up Skydive Arizona, you build a solid business over time. Larry Hill built what he has now over many years. I have seen several recent attempts to open new turbine DZ's with much fanfare that then folded fairly quickly.
Can the market support a full time turbine DZ? I'm not sure its big enough, but time will tell if it can draw from a wide area. I'm not an expert, but to turn a profit I am guessing you need to keep that airplane turning loads on a constant basis from first jump to shut down. The Lincoln SPC held a turbine boogie this summer that was quite well done, and drew jumpers from all over the KS, MO, IA, and NB, area, but even then could barley keep one plane turning constantly. Lots of Cessna DZ jumpers yearn for a turbine, but then want to jump it at a Cessna pace, rather than the constant pack/ jump/pack/jump required, unless you have a very large jumper population to make the loads.
Just my 2 cents. Less than a month to go here in Iraq and I can get back into the sky!
CDR
I jump in the KC area (when I'm home) and am on the MRVS staff, so call me biased if you want, but here's my take, which is similar to Gary's:
I don't wish failure on anyone. I wish the new DZO's good luck in a spirit of furthering all skydiving. I'll even stop by the new DZ and make a jump or two.
The fact is, however, that starting a business is a lot harder than establishing a web site. I see a lot of promises being made before they have flown their first load. You don't just show up the first day and open up Skydive Arizona, you build a solid business over time. Larry Hill built what he has now over many years. I have seen several recent attempts to open new turbine DZ's with much fanfare that then folded fairly quickly.
Can the market support a full time turbine DZ? I'm not sure its big enough, but time will tell if it can draw from a wide area. I'm not an expert, but to turn a profit I am guessing you need to keep that airplane turning loads on a constant basis from first jump to shut down. The Lincoln SPC held a turbine boogie this summer that was quite well done, and drew jumpers from all over the KS, MO, IA, and NB, area, but even then could barley keep one plane turning constantly. Lots of Cessna DZ jumpers yearn for a turbine, but then want to jump it at a Cessna pace, rather than the constant pack/ jump/pack/jump required, unless you have a very large jumper population to make the loads.
Just my 2 cents. Less than a month to go here in Iraq and I can get back into the sky!
CDR
marks 0
QuoteI was never aware that trespassing on privately owned farmland of surrounding landowners was a FAA situation. Nor have I heard of the feds overturning a trespassing violation of privately owned property. Especially when skydivers sign on a dotted line stating they are aware of this...but what do I know?
I would suggest looking further into it then, because that is the facts.
As I understand the situation there is some truth in what’s been posted regarding Tom Dolphin, and Chris Hall. That said, what’s been posted is seriously one sided, and I’m sure that Tom and Chris would have a very different version.
I do not foresee any of the existing DZ DZOs posting in this forum on this subject. They have nothing to gain. Some might say “why all the half lies, distortions, etc.” It’s because it is extremely political, and half lies, distortions, and spin are "politics"!
In my opinion Paul would have been by far better served to have tried to have risen above the existing politics. How you say? By being up front and honest. Saying to any of the existing DZOs that “I’m not going to compete with you”, is just stupid. Saying “I won’t pursue your staff”, again stupid. It obviously costs considerably more to support a million dollar aircraft than it does a $30,000 one. That money has to come from tandems, and filling the airplane with fun jumpers. Flying 1000 to 2000 tandems a year requires staff, that staff has to come from the existing skydivers in the area. Paul will not be able to support full time staff; it’s just not feasible to live on what you’d make from your share of the tandems at a medium sized DZ (am I wrong?).
From what I know about the numbers, I think the KC area could support a Caravan DZ. That said, it’s not as easy as it sounds. Paul will have to maintain the support of the city, and city counsel/airport board. He will have to take most of the student business in the area. He will have to pull a large percentage of the existing instructional staff in the area. He needs as much up jumper traffic as he can get to keep the airplane turning and generating income. It takes more than a desire; it takes a very good business man to pull it off. I’d say that if he can employ the airplane flying cargo during the week, it would take a lot of the pressure off, but that’s more easily said than done too.
I’ll agree that worst case, this new DZ runs for a couple of seasons, drives a couple of existing DZs out of business, then folds.
That said, I support Paul’s right to give it his best shot! I’ll wish everyone good luck, sit back with a bowl of popcorn and a case of beer, down here in Wichita (200 miles away) and see where the cards fall.
My intention in starting this thread was not to make enemies out of anyone involved! If I’ve written anything that anyone involved finds upsetting, please call me on it! Literally, call me, email me, PM me, whatever!
Martin Myrtle
Air Capital Drop Zone
Wichita Kansas
I do not foresee any of the existing DZ DZOs posting in this forum on this subject. They have nothing to gain. Some might say “why all the half lies, distortions, etc.” It’s because it is extremely political, and half lies, distortions, and spin are "politics"!
In my opinion Paul would have been by far better served to have tried to have risen above the existing politics. How you say? By being up front and honest. Saying to any of the existing DZOs that “I’m not going to compete with you”, is just stupid. Saying “I won’t pursue your staff”, again stupid. It obviously costs considerably more to support a million dollar aircraft than it does a $30,000 one. That money has to come from tandems, and filling the airplane with fun jumpers. Flying 1000 to 2000 tandems a year requires staff, that staff has to come from the existing skydivers in the area. Paul will not be able to support full time staff; it’s just not feasible to live on what you’d make from your share of the tandems at a medium sized DZ (am I wrong?).
From what I know about the numbers, I think the KC area could support a Caravan DZ. That said, it’s not as easy as it sounds. Paul will have to maintain the support of the city, and city counsel/airport board. He will have to take most of the student business in the area. He will have to pull a large percentage of the existing instructional staff in the area. He needs as much up jumper traffic as he can get to keep the airplane turning and generating income. It takes more than a desire; it takes a very good business man to pull it off. I’d say that if he can employ the airplane flying cargo during the week, it would take a lot of the pressure off, but that’s more easily said than done too.
I’ll agree that worst case, this new DZ runs for a couple of seasons, drives a couple of existing DZs out of business, then folds.
That said, I support Paul’s right to give it his best shot! I’ll wish everyone good luck, sit back with a bowl of popcorn and a case of beer, down here in Wichita (200 miles away) and see where the cards fall.
My intention in starting this thread was not to make enemies out of anyone involved! If I’ve written anything that anyone involved finds upsetting, please call me on it! Literally, call me, email me, PM me, whatever!
Martin Myrtle
Air Capital Drop Zone
Wichita Kansas
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.
AC DZ
AC DZ
It sounds like they have picked a poor place to open a DZ.Even though there are laws that say we have a right to be there,if the local people don't want you there it is going to be a pain in the ass.
I agree with Frank.There are to many DZOs that feel like they own the jumpers because they have had no competition.If I knew a DZO that acted in the manner reported here,assuming it is true,I would go jump a hang glider before I spent money at their place.
One of my sayings is,"If you have a great place you don't have to worry about everyone leaving".
Some will and some willl return.But if your a dick all of the time as soon as people have a choice they are gone.
.
I agree with Frank.There are to many DZOs that feel like they own the jumpers because they have had no competition.If I knew a DZO that acted in the manner reported here,assuming it is true,I would go jump a hang glider before I spent money at their place.
One of my sayings is,"If you have a great place you don't have to worry about everyone leaving".
Some will and some willl return.But if your a dick all of the time as soon as people have a choice they are gone.
.
jdthomas 0
Martin
you have been at a caravan DZ in the mid west that failed. Whta where the down falls that Phills caravan faced?
I know that the wichita caravan bounced from one dz to the other, we had it in Mt Vernon Mo from time to time. I also know that it was used to fly some frieght out of Pittsburg Kansas as well. What happend to that contract?
What alot of outside of the area jumpers don't see about this whole event is that there is essentially three DZ's to choose from already in the KC area.
All of wich are somewhat of a drive from the city. But what the hell are we that lazy not to make a nice drive to skydive?
Skydive kansas is South of Topeka, MRVS is just East of the city and you can stop by the Casino on your way home for a good meal.
Skydive kansas city is South of the city in Butler Mo, but honestly it's not that far to drive either. maybe one hour.
The diffrence that i can see right now is that paul is offering a bigger plane with more Altitude. Most of the DZ's listed above only go to 9,000 ft for the same money paul will charge for 13,000. That said paul is also going to be the closest DZ to the city.
There seems to be some argument from other dzo's right now. Thats business and fair game is fine but when you cross a line of foul play by going out in the night placing flyers around thats just wrong, espically when that dzo wanted that land before he opend at his current location. thats whole deal was just a bad move on his part in my personall opinion.
Has it been said that paul is looking to take staff away from other dz's? If so that is news to me.
I was under the impression that paul already has a staff of jumpers and has not at all recruited any local persons persay.
I wish that the people who logged in to this fourm with no user info (justthefacts) would at least aknowledge who they are, because once it is out it could look worse for you to hide then to upfront and honest about who you are!
Way to go martin, you really stirred the shit pot in KC, Maybe I will come down to Wichita and bring the popcorn and mark had better have some beer for me.
Joe
you have been at a caravan DZ in the mid west that failed. Whta where the down falls that Phills caravan faced?
I know that the wichita caravan bounced from one dz to the other, we had it in Mt Vernon Mo from time to time. I also know that it was used to fly some frieght out of Pittsburg Kansas as well. What happend to that contract?
What alot of outside of the area jumpers don't see about this whole event is that there is essentially three DZ's to choose from already in the KC area.
All of wich are somewhat of a drive from the city. But what the hell are we that lazy not to make a nice drive to skydive?
Skydive kansas is South of Topeka, MRVS is just East of the city and you can stop by the Casino on your way home for a good meal.
Skydive kansas city is South of the city in Butler Mo, but honestly it's not that far to drive either. maybe one hour.
The diffrence that i can see right now is that paul is offering a bigger plane with more Altitude. Most of the DZ's listed above only go to 9,000 ft for the same money paul will charge for 13,000. That said paul is also going to be the closest DZ to the city.
There seems to be some argument from other dzo's right now. Thats business and fair game is fine but when you cross a line of foul play by going out in the night placing flyers around thats just wrong, espically when that dzo wanted that land before he opend at his current location. thats whole deal was just a bad move on his part in my personall opinion.
Has it been said that paul is looking to take staff away from other dz's? If so that is news to me.
I was under the impression that paul already has a staff of jumpers and has not at all recruited any local persons persay.
I wish that the people who logged in to this fourm with no user info (justthefacts) would at least aknowledge who they are, because once it is out it could look worse for you to hide then to upfront and honest about who you are!
Way to go martin, you really stirred the shit pot in KC, Maybe I will come down to Wichita and bring the popcorn and mark had better have some beer for me.
Joe
www.greenboxphotography.com
QuoteWhat alot of outside of the area jumpers don't see about this whole event is that there is essentially three DZ's to choose from already in the KC area.
Welcome to the world of big city skydiving politics.Atlanta has 4,all within an hour of the city.Two of them are less than 3 miles away from each other.You think there is any politic involved there?This is not a new problem.It's just new to your area.Just wait till Skyride comes your way.
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jdthomas 0
Just wait till Skyride comes your way.
.
.
They already have!
www.greenboxphotography.com
QuoteMartin
you have been at a caravan DZ in the mid west that failed. Whta where the down falls that Phills caravan faced?
I know that the wichita caravan bounced from one dz to the other, we had it in Mt Vernon Mo from time to time. I also know that it was used to fly some frieght out of Pittsburg Kansas as well. What happend to that contract?
Joe
Phil’s Caravan failed here for a few reasons. First and foremost, Wichita is a metro area of around 600,000, as opposed to KC area of something like 2,000,000. Between all DZs in the area we do 500 to 600 first jump students a year, and there isn’t the fun jumper population to fill a Caravan on a regular basis.
BTW, it’s interesting to see what happens when you fill a Caravan with a bunch of “200 jump wonders” who are used to jumping 182s! Regardless of what I ever said about doing multiple small RW formations, it virtually always turned into a 12/14/16 way ZOO! I did participate on occasion, but damn sure always went out last or next to last! We did have an incident where a jumper got over a building formation, dropped 20 feet, dislocated both his shoulders, and if it weren’t for his Cypress would have ended the day as a statistic!
I think one problem with the Caravan moving around was that people would save their money for “Caravan Weekend”, come out spend their budget, and the DZO would (beer in hand) sit at the end of the weekend and watch the airplane leave, along with all the money.
There were a couple of problems with the freight contract in Pittsburg. One was the problem of ferrying the airplane back and fourth every weekend. You also have to maintain Part 135 which is much more stringent than Part 91. I think that freight contract was basically supporting the maintenance on the airplane and nothing more (covering the maintenance is a big deal). Nick Robson did get his Part 135 certificate, and Phil was working to get the plane another freight contract out of Wichita (to my knowledge) when the bank got all testy about their lack of money, and took the airplane away.
I was told in a conversation (I don’t think I should reveal much of what was said to me in private) that Paul had called a staff member, after telling the DZO that he wouldn’t. Maybe Paul doesn’t have your phone number Joe?
Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.
AC DZ
AC DZ
jdthomas 0
Maybe Paul doesn’t have your phone number Joe?
Martin
Martin
Actually paul does have my number and he has talked to me but never about myself being staff of the DZ, maybe it is because I have let it be known that I am letting my ratings go and returning to fun jumps only. But from what I understood he was bringing staff with him to KC area. perhaps I am wrong in that assumption that I extracted from our conversation.
So does Mark have the beer on ice yet? I should be arriving down there soon.. ACDZ rocks!!!
Joe
www.greenboxphotography.com
Certainly the DZ would do good to spot well, and perhaps encourage higher opening altitudes for those that are exiting long.
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