rear riser landings

[crotalus01 0]

The recent incident of a dropped toggle resulting in a femur fracture got me thinking about rear riser landings and I have a question. When landing on rear risers, how much is the stall point affected by having both toggles dropped vs 1 toggle in hand? Obviously you aren't going to have any emergency situations I can think of where you have both toggles in hand that force a rear riser landing, so is it better to drop the remaining toggle or hold onto it, and why?

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[gearless_chris 1]

I've landed on rears a few times due to broken steering lines. It wasn't an issue having one toggle still, I have some slack in the brake lines already, and you don't have to pull the risers that far to flare.
I would not flare with one toggle and one riser. They do different things and will cause a turn. Lots of people have done it with the same bad results.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[potatoman 0]

I would not think there would be any. When the canopy flies normal with toggle up, there is a bit of slack in the brake lines. Seen from the side the brake lines curve behind the rest of the lines due to wind.

When you grab your rears, you grab pretty much at the same point where the toggle stopper is. When rear-flaring, you will bring the whole back(c and d) of the canopy down, in turn having very much the same slack on both brake lines, relative to the wing.
SO, having one in hand, and the other loose, would probably give the same result.

I did a landing where one brake line was broken, and I never even though of dropping the other. Just grabbed both rears, at the top of the riser, and flared, with no noticable turn.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I would not think there would be any. When the canopy flies normal with toggle up, there is a bit of slack in the brake lines. Seen from the side the brake lines curve behind the rest of the lines due to wind.

Indeed it does, however, the wind pressure that bows the line backwards also provides tension on the line that holds the tail in place. If you had no steering lines, the tail itself aft of the D lines would have a tendency to point upwards, especially when you flare the canopy (with the rears) and build pressure on the bottom skin.

This is why it's ill advised to cut the remaining steering line if the other one breaks. People seem to think that you just 'land on the rears', but with both steering lines cut, you lose all of the sq footage aft of the D lines in terms of 'fly-able' surface area. So now you have essentially a much smaller canopy, with no proven flare performance and no experience on the part of the pilot flaring in that configuration, so the odds of a problem on landing go way up.

In terms of the question in this thread, if both toggles/steering lines are intact, your hand position with regards to the toggles makes no difference on a rear riser flare. In your hands or not, both toggles will be either up against, or very close, to the guide ring, and will be pulled down with the riser when you flare.

In terms of what I suggested above, and the idea of a broken steering line creating an asymmetrical configuration on landing, it's true it will be there, but it's the pilots job to 'fly' the canopy through the landing. Sometimes that means a perfectly symmetrical flare, and sometimes that means an asymmetrical flare to compensate for wind conditions or gear issues.

So if the canopy has an asymmetry, the pilot has to have an equal but opposite asymmetry in their inputs, and they can achieve a level flare upon landing.

Of course, how soft that landing will be is a big unknown. To offset the asymmetrical configuration, you may only be able to flare one side to 75%, so your overall stopping power will be reduced. For this reason it's also the pilot's job to realize that this is not going to be a normal landing, and be prepared for a PLF to reduce the chances of injury.

[potatoman 0]

What he said. Also my no noticable turn -> could have been a slight turn, but in the moment in time, I was not really paying attention to a bit more on the one side than the other, but more of get this thing landed safely. lol.

I can admit though, I did a couple of test rear flares before ground, and the stall point was reached very soon, and not with a lot of input into the rears. But also, think this was due to lack of practice, and the norm is to pull down on toggles, and not rears that are much shorter.

You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is.
Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum"
Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I did a couple of test rear flares before ground, and the stall point was reached very soon, and not with a lot of input into the rears. But also, think this was due to lack of practice, and the norm is to pull down on toggles, and not rears that are much shorter

Another good point. The control stroke on the rears is very short, even on a 'good' canopy. Something like 6 or 8 inches until the stall.

So when the canopy is not good, you need to feel out the stall point if you intend to land the canopy. If it wants to fold up at 3 inches of input, and you give it that at 10 ft up, you just made a tough landing much tougher.

If you do intend to land the canopy on rears, one idea is to talk to yourself all the way down your final approach saying, 'Landing on rears, landing on rears, landing on rears' in order to help you overcome the muscle memory of a full toggle stroke when you want to flare.

[RichM 0]

davelepka

Quote

I did a couple of test rear flares before ground, and the stall point was reached very soon, and not with a lot of input into the rears. But also, think this was due to lack of practice, and the norm is to pull down on toggles, and not rears that are much shorter

Another good point. The control stroke on the rears is very short, even on a 'good' canopy. Something like 6 or 8 inches until the stall.

My crossfire 1 starts to stall after about 3 inches of rear riser input. As you said the key here is to always find out the stall characteristics at a safe altitude and not wait until 10ft off the deck.

Rich M

[pchapman 261]

gearless_chris

I would not flare with one toggle and one riser. They do different things and will cause a turn. Lots of people have done it with the same bad results.

I can't disagree since I haven't seen enough examples either way.

Still, just as a data point, I'd like to add that the one time I tried it, it was no problem. Still, "YMMV", and I'm used to using risers and toggles on landings, so I won't recommend this "asymmetric" way of landing to others.

I was on an FX 88 at 2.0- 2.1 loading and essentially had one toggle locked up at full flight.

I had never practiced landing with one toggle and one riser, but it seemed natural enough to use one of each -- adjusting either input as needed to keep the canopy level, even if wobbling slightly. Slid in the landing nicely, given that the landing area was smooth.

I would guess that I was leading with the riser, focusing on the small amount of pull that takes, while using the opposite toggle as necessary to prevent any turn.

(As another data point for at least partial asymmetrical use of landing inputs, another time the toggle wasn't fully locked up, but moved somewhat as it was wrapped around the guide ring and the brake line. Had a slide in landing that time, although tipping over onto the side of the good brake that I used. On the other bad side, I pulled the brake which partially came down, and partially pulled the riser down. Probably not the best strategy as I wouldn't know to what degree either input would occur.)

[gearless_chris 1]

I had a malfunction once where the left brake released, but the right would not. I took a couple wraps on the left toggle so it would fly straight with both hands all the way up, then did a bunch of practice flares with the risers. It worked out okay so I landed it, not all that gracefully, but it wasn't bad. That was a Samurai [email protected] w/l.
I have not had to deal with both steering lines broken on the same jump before, so I can't comment on what to do with that.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[pchapman 261]

gearless_chris

I had a malfunction once where the left brake released, but the right would not. [...] It worked out okay so I landed it, not all that gracefully, but it wasn't bad. That was a Samurai [email protected] w/l.

Well done! Some jumpers may forget to distinguish between a brake that is broken or locked at full flight, versus a brake line that is in the set position -- which can slow the canopy down a whole lot. It is much more serious to try to land with risers from what is a partially braked approach.

[erdnarob 1]

I have had three times a brake lock on my Katana and managed to land using the working toggle and pulling the other riser. I repeated the flare several times at altitude and when came the landing, it was not that bad (though no stand up). Now I have a new pair of risers including also loops on the inside (of the rear risers) just in case I have to use them (broken steering line or else).

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[LPlate 0]

I've landed on rears a few times due to broken steering lines.

Your profile indicates 1800 jumps, am I alone in thinking you might need to pay more attention to your gear.......

[gearless_chris 1]

Not sure how many I've broken, but it is a lot. Mostly from my Cobalt, it was brutal, like a BASE rig, but harder and with more linetwists.
I broke a line on my Nitron, just replaced it and kept going, the other went 40 jumps later. I guess if you break one you should probably replace the other.
I bought my Samurai used knowing that it would need a line set soon. Made it to the last jump of the day at Nationals in 2011. Had the rigger there replace both lines to get me through the rest of 4 way and 8 way, then had the line set replaced over the winter.
Apparently I exceeded the number of jumps on the HMA lines, I had 4 or maybe 5 lines break on it. They were HMA so no real warning, and it wasn't a hard opening either. Here's the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPhZBVLxotU It's long, you don't need to watch it all, unless you want to watch me land my reserve, run to the hangar, grab my other rig, and still make the turn when the plane lands. :-)

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[ChrisD 0]

crotalus01

The recent incident of a dropped toggle resulting in a femur fracture got me thinking about rear riser landings and I have a question. When landing on rear risers, how much is the stall point affected by having both toggles dropped vs 1 toggle in hand? Obviously you aren't going to have any emergency situations I can think of where you have both toggles in hand that force a rear riser landing, so is it better to drop the remaining toggle or hold onto it, and why?

No one is forcing you to have a "rear riser landing." Implicit in your hypothetical question is the fact that at some point you have bypassed a controllability check. If in fact you cant flare, and cant flare with your canopy overhead,...

close to the ground is the wrong place to find this out.

Remember your landing priorities and remember the B lic progression is to get proficient with using your rear risers. This is a minimal skill set. Everyone should be proficient with the flight characteristics as soon as their abilities allow, this should be a goal for many.

If you practice this skill you would have seen your answere already. Everyone should be proficient with rear riser landings. Take the time to learn at a safe pace with the right equipment.

If you have a wing loading greater than 1.0 and you can't already land repeatedly and safely on your rears then there isn't any point in having a safety discussion at this point because most of you know better Right, I mean really...this question has all the makings of the recipe for the arguments against downsizing because in a sense many are holding up a sign that they don't care.

Many have had more than their share of "inconveniences" with their toggle lines. No one advocates ever dropping their toggles.

This latest article in the magazine specifically addressed this whole issue in an attempt to stem the practices of a few that don't have mad skillzzz....

C

As is your question is very difficult to answer. For most of us it will be impossible to tell you considering all of the variables, canopy, riser length, toggles (whether they are shortened or worn,) wing loading, and or weight, where your "stall point" is. Also when making up hypothetical questions it is also best to specify where and when the hypothetical event takes place. If a line breaks close to the ground, say ten feet, you basically have no choice but prepare for a plf, grab your rears up high and flare as best you can, ...because you have practiced for this rare contingency many times. If this happens upon opening which is more common, do your controllability check. Most students are taught to cut away if they have a toggle break. But this varies across the world. If your going to dick with your lines make your decision well before your decision height. No one that I know of recommends cutting away at or below 1000 feet. Apparently with this emergency of yours you have time and altitude to debate whether you can or can't shuffle things around in your hands, while your playing around I suggest you also be altitude aware and watch out for other traffic as well as any obstacles on the ground. I suppose if you don't have time to play with stuff,...then that kind of answers your question doesn't it.

Your question also is suggesting a flare with one toggle??? Your not really very clear here. Are you suggesting you flare with one toggle and grab the other rear riser? Are you suggesting something else? I suggest you practice, (up high and with prior notification to all other jumpers,) finding out what happens when you leave one toggle stowed and then try to flare and turn with one toggle. Try grabbing the other riser and see how and what it takes to do a controlled flare , straight ahead,...to the stall point.

How have your practice rear riser landings been going so far? For many experienced jumpers the question of using your rears is kind of a moot discussion point. When I ask other experienced jumpers about this they don't really care. The most common answer is something like this:

"Rears or toggles? , ya I know I don't really care,...once I got the hang of landing on my rears ,...either or doesn't matter, can do both..."

It's a no stress non-event....


Now if your lines break right in the middle of your 60 mph swoop, I personally would drop the other toggle, because it will give me, briefly, something other to think about, other than: "O'h Shit."
Now considering your question about shifting stall points and are you speaking about the differences of what goes on between if you have your remaining hand halfway down? Your going to turn of course, but you know this already,...if you loose a toggle completely that side is going to be in full flight. The other side is going to be in the flight mode your hand position reflects. Kind of tough to flare with one toggle. You need to do whatever it takes to keep your canopy overhead when close to the ground, if you have practiced your rear riser landings, that will be a big plus and your landing will be a non-event.

So now let's look at what happens if your at say landing pattern entry height with no traffic around,... you gonna hold the one and only toggle only? I mean just make whatever handed turns you can make and not flare and hope for the best? Most people when faced with this situation just fly with their rear risers. It really doesn't matter if you drop the remaining toggle or not. Trying to flare by using one toggle is not a good idea, BTW.

I also want to point out that the vast majority of line breaks under the circumstances you have described come at no surprise to the users of said gear. I am going to advocate that over 99 percent of line breaks are caused by worn equipment. Lines just don't magically unravel or pull out of bar tacked finger traps. Most if not all are well worn for all to see....on the other hand if your line loop around your toggle isn't knotted correctly that can pull out, but guess what, it's still your fault and could have been prevented with a through gear check.

Now of course if your speaking about the recent article in parachutist, there is this theory that always hanging on to your toggles is a good idea, considering the Fx Femur thing...

the idea is that you always hang on to your toggles from cradle to grave so to speak. Fingers thru, pinkeys or whatever, lock the toggles in, ALWAYS, and your thumb and fore fingers can grab whatever, but the idea is always hold on to your toggles. You question has now implied we have a choice and once again others will start to see the options and once again we will have continuing incidents because of people continuing to search out the best way...

(There is a nice picture: Parachutist June 2013 pg. 68.) You can clearly see how there is slack in the toggle line, enough to grab your front risers if your into that sort of thing.


Well the best way is to hang onto your toggles, always, because there is nothing to be gained by letting it go. From the learning and experience section.

Now on the other hand you raise an interesting situation if someone mistakenly pulls the one and only toggle because they panic instead of using their rears and thinking that this is going to flare the same for them????

It all boils down to one thing and that's practicing using your rears to land,...till it becomes second nature....

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[crotalus01 0]

ChrisD - I asked for information, not a lecture. As for "skipping the controlability check", I can think of several scenarios that would in fact force a rear riser landing and have personally had it happen to me. If the fingertrap on your left toggle comes out at 600' what are you gonna do? I'm sure as hell not gonna chop....

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[mcordell 2]

crotalus01

ChrisD - I asked for information, not a lecture. As for "skipping the controlability check", I can think of several scenarios that would in fact force a rear riser landing and have personally had it happen to me. If the fingertrap on your left toggle comes out at 600' what are you gonna do? I'm sure as hell not gonna chop....

I think your question was reasonable and I can think of scenarios where you would be past the point of no return with your main but have a steering line issue so I think it would be important to know how your canopy reacts with only rear riser input and practice landing on rears at some point. Having one toggle in hand may make some difference on heavily loaded canopies but it is pretty minimal on my sabre 2 210 at close to 1:1 so you just have to experiment up high to see what you've got. My joule doesn't flare on rears sell enough to land it safely since it has no d lines but if im at 600 and have no choice then I'll try and plf to be safe.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[gearless_chris 1]

I've had that happen also... twice.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.