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Douggarr

Hard Deck for C's and D's

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DocPop

***
You have clearly have never done a big way skydive. Sometimes when you are on the same group... The best you can do is track till the people around you deploy.



I haven't and I likely never will.

So what happens when two or more people think like you suggest and nobody pulls? Keep tracking and hope for a big pile of cardboard boxes?! ;)

Think of their breakoff and deployment heights like you think of your landing setup heights.

Ideally you like to be at x height to do a y degree turn but have some flexibility. Below a certain altitude you can do a smaller turn and below that you just land straight in.

My biggest concern with this rule is the lemming that deploys right at 2500 regardless of having clear airspace "so they don't get in trouble" and injures or kills two people.:S
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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DocPop

***
You have clearly have never done a big way skydive. Sometimes when you are on the same group... The best you can do is track till the people around you deploy.



I haven't and I likely never will.

So what happens when two or more people think like you suggest and nobody pulls? Keep tracking and hope for a big pile of cardboard boxes?! ;)

At some point you get mad at the other guy for trying to kill you and you throw your pilot chute at him in anger.;)
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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skydivr

The entire reason for the rule change is so the AAD manufacturers can raise the firing altitude. Period.



And they do not need a BSR for that. The manufacurers could raise the altitude with a manual change.

This just shows the BOD is doing the manufacturers bidding.

Is the USPA supposed to be for jumpers, or the manufacurers?

Fact is that THREE years ago the USPA asked the PIA to look into these slow opening reserves. I have not seen nor heard a thing about it.

The manufacturers have been 'modifying' containers using 10-40 year old TSO's. And we act surprised when a new situation pops up?

We didn't have people bouncing after their AAD's fired for 15 years after they were invented, and back then people pulled lower.

The slow deployments are the fault of the manufacturers, not the AAD heights, not jumpers pulling at 2k. Yet the USPA rolls over for the AAD manufacturers and puts rules on the jumpers instead of putting pressure on rig companies.

To me, that sounds like the BOD is in bed with the manufacturers and will do anything to the jumpers to make them happy.

If the problem is the rig.... Why has the USPA done jack shit to the manufacturers?
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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DSE

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If the problem is the rig.... Why has the USPA done jack shit to the manufacturers?



USPA can't do anything to the rig manufacturers. USPA could pressure PIA, which in turn...

USPA could ground any rig at a group member DZ, or prevent any member from jumping that rig.

They won't. Not even saying they should, but it goes to show the USPA does not want to piss off the manufacturers.

I mean if we didn't have these AAD fire bounces 10 years ago when people were pulling at 2k more often... Then it is not the pull altitude that is the problem. It is the gear.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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skydivr

The entire reason for the rule change is so the AAD manufacturers can raise the firing altitude. Period.



Did the AAD manufacturer's ask for this? My understanding is it wasn't Airtek or Vigil begging the BOD.

It certainly wasn't multitudes of members.....

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diablopilot

It was the PIA requesting the change from the BOD. The PIA is a representative organization of the manufacturers. (I know you know this Craig, just pointing it out....)



My understanding from several sources is that the request was read by one member of the BOD, but copies of that request were not available until later.

It was not on PIA stationary, but a manufacturer.

craig

PS. Thanks for the nod, JP.
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Douggarr

Just heard that the USPA raised the hard deck to 2,500 feet for C and D license holders at the summer board meeting. I'm waiting for the wave of protesters to weigh in. But I'm in favor of it, even though those who are against it will certainly ignore it. The ST&A can waive the requirement at a given DZ, I think.



I've seen an entire load get out at 2k (there was a low cloud ceiling). I stayed in the plane with one other jumper.

Your risk is a direct product of the choices you make.

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DocPop

***I routinely pull between 2000 and 2500 feet as the spot allows, mainly to get out of the way of as much canopy traffic as possible ...



If you're using vertical separation to create canopy separation then you are part of the problem. Horizontal separation is what you should be aiming for.

Most land in the same area. Vertical separation helps, especially for tandems and students getting out last and pulling higher. One can only guess how many tandems would have been involved in canopy collisions if they did not routinely get out last and pull higher. Admittedly they may not do this for separation, but it probably affects the outcome, regardless of dick swinging aphorisms.

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dorbie

******I routinely pull between 2000 and 2500 feet as the spot allows, mainly to get out of the way of as much canopy traffic as possible ...



If you're using vertical separation to create canopy separation then you are part of the problem. Horizontal separation is what you should be aiming for.

Most land in the same area. Vertical separation helps, especially for tandems and students getting out last and pulling higher. One can only guess how many tandems would have been involved in canopy collisions if they did not routinely get out last and pull higher. Admittedly they may not do this for separation, but it probably affects the outcome, regardless of dick swinging aphorisms.

There is no safety in vertical separation. It does not leave room for a high speed mal, a premature deployment, loss of altitude awareness etc.

They are all bad enough on their own without having to worry about who is below or above you.

The TIs I have seen are leaving appropriate intervals in the door to create horizontal separation.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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There is no safety in vertical separation.



Nonsense. I have pulled low to avoid the guy above me, I have pulled high to avoid the guy below me. It may not be a good way to PLAN, but there is in fact safety in vertical separation.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ron

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There is no safety in vertical separation.



Nonsense. I have pulled low to avoid the guy above me, I have pulled high to avoid the guy below me. It may not be a good way to PLAN, but there is in fact safety in vertical separation.



Absolutely. That is of course what I meant, thanks for clarifying.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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thevasc21

Who seriously thinks 2k is good hop and pop altitude?



I do. It's perfect for seven cell accuracy canopies loaded around the .7 pound per square foot optimum with a spot over the top. When things go well you'll be open within several seconds and 50 feet of altitude. If things don't low speed malfunctions happen slowly. 300 feet of altitude is plenty to fly a pattern with down-wind, base, and final legs.

I wouldn't jump one of my small ellipticals in that situation because it takes a while to open, you have more housekeeping to do with collapsible sliders/chest straps/etc, getting back to the DZ with 300 feet of altitude wouldn't leave room for a normal speed inducing turn to say nothing of a pattern.

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DrewEckhardt


I wouldn't jump one of my small ellipticals in that situation (2k is good hop and pop) because it takes a while to open, you have more housekeeping to do with collapsible sliders/chest straps/etc, getting back to the DZ with 300 feet of altitude wouldn't leave room for a normal speed inducing turn to say nothing of a pattern.



OK -- here's the grain of salt; I am no hot rod driver.

It sounds like you are saying that the housekeeping and speed-inducing turn are both something you must do on every jump..
I understand the openings as being a potential issue but I see no requirement for housekeeping and a speed inducing turn. What am I missing?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I can't speak for Drew but i'd say its really more effort than its worth with the small ellipticals.

In other words, if something unexpected happened and you had to get out at 2K, most of us probably would (without the turn as you suggest) - but we certainly wouldn't choose to knowing the ceiling was at 2K. There are others who would go up knowing the ceiling was low, having the right tools for the job.
Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

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popsjumper

***
I wouldn't jump one of my small ellipticals in that situation (2k is good hop and pop) because it takes a while to open, you have more housekeeping to do with collapsible sliders/chest straps/etc, getting back to the DZ with 300 feet of altitude wouldn't leave room for a normal speed inducing turn to say nothing of a pattern.



OK -- here's the grain of salt; I am no hot rod driver.

It sounds like you are saying that the housekeeping and speed-inducing turn are both something you must do on every jump..
I understand the openings as being a potential issue but I see no requirement for housekeeping and a speed inducing turn. What am I missing?

I think you're missing that Drew was answering the following:

Quote

Who seriously thinks 2k is good hop and pop altitude?



The answer being that, with a small elliptical, it isn't.

That's not to say you couldn't but what's the point of getting your own pass on a small elliptical if not to do a HP turn?

I think you both essentially agree that it's perfectly feasible, just more of a ball-ache than it's worth to plan a 2k HnP for a swoop.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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jacketsdb23

I can't speak for Drew but i'd say its really more effort than its worth with the small ellipticals.

In other words, if something unexpected happened and you had to get out at 2K, most of us probably would (without the turn as you suggest) - but we certainly wouldn't choose to knowing the ceiling was at 2K. There are others who would go up knowing the ceiling was low, having the right tools for the job.



I've left an airplane at 1,200 feet (with the right tools) and watched as another jumper had to fight serious line twist which he later decided to chop and he still had pleanty of time to deal with it.

We all know hard decks are a flewid altitude for the experienced jumper to work with. I also think the USPA's recent decision to change the Min opening altitude makes sense for the "General Membership".

Further, I think if this decision opens the door for the Manufactuers to raise AAD firing altitude, this too is a good thing. (at least for the general membership) B|
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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This change can be waived by a S&TA.



This is the worst thing you could do for the position of S&TA (especially if it's separate from the DZO/DZM) in the US at anything bigger than a Cessna DZ. It puts them in a no-win position: either be "the asshole" and refuse to ever grant the waiver, or grant the waiver and - on that very basis - be a target of a lawsuit if someone gets hurt or killed on a "waived" jump. That's bullshit. I hope every S&TA in the US fully understands what he's in for from now on if this rule sticks.

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This is the worst thing you could do for the position of S&TA (especially if it's separate from the DZO/DZM) in the US at anything bigger than a Cessna DZ. It puts them in a no-win position: either be "the asshole" and refuse to ever grant the waiver, or grant the waiver and - on that very basis - be a target of a lawsuit if someone gets hurt or killed on a "waived" jump. That's bullshit. I hope every S&TA in the US fully understands what he's in for from now on if this rule sticks.



I can see the S&TA waiver the altitude for PRO level demos without much liability risk. For regular jumps, after a couple years no one is going to ask for a 2,000ft opening altitude anyway. 2,500 will be the new norm, which is fine given the majority of gear out there these days.

- Dan G

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DanG

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This is the worst thing you could do for the position of S&TA (especially if it's separate from the DZO/DZM) in the US at anything bigger than a Cessna DZ. It puts them in a no-win position: either be "the asshole" and refuse to ever grant the waiver, or grant the waiver and - on that very basis - be a target of a lawsuit if someone gets hurt or killed on a "waived" jump. That's bullshit. I hope every S&TA in the US fully understands what he's in for from now on if this rule sticks.



I can see the S&TA waiver the altitude for PRO level demos without much liability risk. For regular jumps, after a couple years no one is going to ask for a 2,000ft opening altitude anyway. 2,500 will be the new norm, which is fine given the majority of gear out there these days.



I think waiving it on a Demo is the worst case scenario. Now I not only have to worry about the jumper getting hurt or killed, but him/her hitting someone on the ground.

Plaintiff attorney: "Why did you run into Jane Moveslikeaglacier on your jump?"
Skydiver: My exit was so low it left me few options over the landing area."
PA: "Why did you get out so low?"
SD: "That is where the cloud cover was at."
PA: "Is that allowed?"
SD: "Not according to USPA or the people that make my equipment, but my S&TA said I had mad skilz and could get out low."
PA: "Who is this S&TA and how do we get ahold of him/her?"
SD: "Their info is on the USPA website."
PA: "Do you think he has any assets?"

S&TA left out to hang. Jumper has insurance, USPA and gear manufacturers can hide behind the "We told you not to do this." S&TA at the very minimum gets a couple of depositions, has to hire and attorney, miss a few nights sleep worrying about this, and probably gets his/her name in the news as the person responsible. YAY!

Just say no, and those pissed off demo jumpers will let the RD and the National Directors know about it. I doubt they will listen to the membership, but let them know anyway.

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