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riggerrob

Pencil packing?

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You know I really have gotten something out of this thread (scarey) I have used a riggers name, had the rigger pack it (after a pen-pack) within a week or two. The rigger wasn't hurt because the time/to money ratio was the same. I got to go to the boogie (or whatever)

The rigger didn't re-date it or anything. It was a service provided to me by a very trusted rigger who I want to do my rigging.

A lot of jumpers have trusted riggers. For some of the posters they want a by the book rigger. Some of us (not all) weren't going to shit if our repack is out of date-and like it or not there are plenty of riggers who feel the same way.

I notice that THESE riggers aren't saying much here but the ones that get really mad are. :P
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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I suppose I'm not only worried that a pencil-packed reserve wouldn't open when I needed it to, but that some type of problem (such as the one I had on my first repack with the AAD cutter problem) would cause it to open when I *didn't* need it.

But then you're probably going to tell me I'm device dependent because I use an AAD... since you've already jumped to conclusions about me. [:/]

My own example is but one example, as your example of the person who jumped a four-year old pack job is but one example. Neither is statistically meaningful.

Precisely because I have neither the history/experience in the sport nor a riggers' ticket, I have to trust other peoples' judgement as I do learn in the sport. Till I've been around long enough and learned enough to make my own call on that, I'm going to go with the majority of regulatory agencies that have decided that a 120-180 day repack cycle is ideal. I will also appreciate those with skill and experience far greater than mine who challenge those cycles *if* they believe they're too stringent.

What I'm not going to do is use my 18 months of experience to make the decision of how often my reserve needs to be repacked. I'm surprised you'd imply that I should.

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I have used a riggers name, had the rigger pack it (after a pen-pack) within a week or two. The rigger wasn't hurt because the time/to money ratio was the same.



Unless that rigger said it was ok, it's wrong to say "no harm, no foul" to signing another person's name on anything without their permission, including a packing card. The person who said "a forgery is a forgery" is spot-on correct. If I was a rigger and someone forged my signature on their card for a reserve that hadn't actually been re-packed (by me), I might be pissed enough to never pack for them again. Forging someone else's signature on something, especially something important, without their permission, is a very un-cool thing to do.

Oh, FWIW: if shit happened, and it ever came to light (i.e., to the authorities) that you forged a rigger's signature without his permission, you could wind up getting charged with a criminal offense. In most states, forgery is a felony.

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LOL

Okay here we go in real plain english.

1. The rigger doesn't care becaue the rigger would rather do the pack job later than not at all.

2. While some may be worried that if "something happens" they'll (me) get in trouble, for me that falls below my "worry" level.

3. Did I ask the rigger "mind if I forge your name" NO because that could make the rigger liable

4. Does the rigger know I have done this? Yes cause he packs the reserve and can read.

and lastly but a repeat - IF the rigger got mad and didn't want to pack for me because of it I would understand and GO to another rigger.

Folks a lot of people handle this a lot of different ways and A LOT of riggers do to. In a perfect world or perfect people it wouldn't happen. But it does.

Lastly I try not to do "very un-cool things" I'm sure I fail from time to time - but not in this case.

I now will crawl back under my rock:P
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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...Out of all of this dicussion and discourse I have come to the conclusion that a whole bunch of you kiddies dont know your gear very well and are afraid of it.



Nice attitude. Very condescending. Very presumptuous.
Missing the point altogether.



So, Pops....you learned all that about me from one paragraph ????
You have a lot more to learn than rigging.

bozo


bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

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While some may be worried that if "something happens" they'll (me) get in trouble, for me that falls below my "worry" level.



Probably because you fail to appreciate the risk - to yourself, the rigger, the DZ you jump at and the pilot who flies you. What I was trying to do was make you appreciate that risk. But look, I can't force you to listen.

Do you take the same attitude on, for example, gear maintenance? Pin checks? Jumping into clouds? Exit separation? Downsizing? Low turns? If you don't, then presumably (hopefully) it's because you appreciate the risks involved.

Younger jumpers sometimes get themselves into trouble on DZs because they fail to heed the voices of experience trying to help them not break themselves, or others. There's a lesson in that.

Oh, and I'd like to see you answer Gravitymaster's question, too.

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Man I wish it wasn't raining here, I'd go jump instead of trying to make myself clear here. I'm afraid I don't communicate well on line.

1. The "risk" that you seem to be trying to educate me on, I believe, is the risk to the rigger should something happen to me. I've ask what happens after an accident and the only reply was (basically) why should I have to go through all the heart burn to prove I DIDN'T pack it. I agree that if someone pen packed the reserve w/o the understanding of there rigger it's wrong. If the rigger - as in my case - knows that from time to time this might happen then they take the risk they may have to prove they didn't sign off on the rig BUT they get to keep the $$ from the re-pack.

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Do you take the same attitude on, for example, gear maintenance? Pin checks? Jumping into clouds? Exit separation? Downsizing? Low turns? If you don't, then presumably (hopefully) it's because you appreciate the risks involved.



Again, the "risk" is between me and my rigger. It is an agreed upon risk that we both accept that benifits us both.


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Oh, and I'd like to see you answer Gravitymaster's question, too.



Okay,

1. Someone signs my name to their card without my permission, having NOT done the jumps, I'd be pissed. Someone is on the way to another dz and has completed the work but I didn't for some reason sign them off (the pen that I use to pen-pack my rig ran out of ink) and they forged my name. N.P.
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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...So, Pops....you learned all that about me from one paragraph ????
You have a lot more to learn than rigging.
bozo



Yep...unless your were just joking...but there was no indication of that. How can you post something so mean-spirited and then claim innocence?
So..your inference that "a whole bunch of you kiddies dont know your gear very well and are afraid of it" is valid?

Yep...I'm still learning. Your post seems to indicate that you already know it all...but my guess is that you really didn't mean to imply that.

Let's get back to the OPs point about pencil packing, eh?

Read NWFlyer's comment above and then re-think.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I asked this before and never got an answer, so I'll ask again.

As a USPA Coach, do you have any problem with a student forging your signature on their progression card?

-


YES! Emphatically. Forging my signature on anything would piss me off.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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The second time they caught Steve Magnuson pencil-packing, the FAA fined him $500.

It was an amusing story, that started with Magnuson bringing his reserve to Al Frisbee (FAA Master Rigger) for a legitimate repack. Al got angry when he found a cracked stiffener (in the reserve container) and holes in the reserve canopy. Al accused "Dead Ted" (FAA Senior Rigger) of sloppy rigging, but Ted denied doing the last repack. Ted offered his rigger's logbook as proof that he had not worked on Magnuson's gear during the past year and definitely not on the date of the last repack. This resulted in a bitter feud that dragged in the local FAA DPRE, etc.
Eventually, Magnuson admitted to suffering a malfunction, repacking the - damaged - reserve himself and forging Ted's signature.

Since this was the second time he had been caught pencil-packing, the FAA fined Magnuson $500.

Note: Magnuson never held any rigger's rating and was shocked when I told him that Rigging Innovations would need a month to train him - to Senior Rigger status - and would charge him thousands of dollars.

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...So, Pops....you learned all that about me from one paragraph ????
You have a lot more to learn than rigging.
bozo



Yep...unless your were just joking...but there was no indication of that. How can you post something so mean-spirited and then claim innocence?




cuz he is innocent.....hes not mean spirited, hes just old and cranky.........


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HK MP5SD.........silence is golden

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very amusing story, riggerrob......the only mistake I see here is admitting to an offence. I'll say it again...if I get the impression that a rigger is a wannabe cop, or believes that being a rigger gives them some authority....we take the work elsewhere. SIMPLE. If said rigger makes an issue of it, or decides to spread the story...then of course it becomes a personal issue

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I asked this before and never got an answer, so I'll ask again.

As a USPA Coach, do you have any problem with a student forging your signature on their progression card?

-


YES! Emphatically. Forging my signature on anything would piss me off.



Exactly!
What part of that is so hard for some others to understand?

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of course it becomes a personal issue



If someone signs my name, they steal my reputation. Of course it's personal.

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[W]e take the work elsewhere. SIMPLE.



Please do. I'm sure that someone, somewhere, with or without a ticket, can meet your standards.

Mark

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if I get the impression that a rigger is a wannabe cop, or believes that being a rigger gives them some authority..



Sorry but we do have authority, that is to use our ticket with in the scope of the law, where you like it or not.
From your postings I would have told you to fuck off and take your rig and your attitude else where long before you had the chance to take your work down the road, had I found you signing my name and using my seal.
sounds to me you got some kind of hardon for riggerrob,my guess is he told you to fuck off too.

It's not about being a wannabe cop or having an authority, it about having respect for the person who's name and seal is on your rig, should you chose to not respect your rigger why in the hell should we show any respect for you and not turn your sorry ass into the FAA should you continue to sign someone elses name over and over, as a rigger why should I turn a blind eye to your actions, I would have a duty to protect myself and my fellow riggers. Don't do the crime, if you can't pay the fine!

~
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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This whole card forgery trip reminds me of creative log book entries.
On several occassions it has come to my attention that some people like to boost their jump numbers by slippin' with the pen a bit always in the same direction.....ie UP. :o
One guy managed to pace the keenest jumpers and outdo them in jump numbers even though he only did the odd jump when the sun shined.
It became a bit of a running joke asking "how many jumps ya got now mate?'
Of course he was making most of it up.

Another group were happily adding jump numbers at night laughing at the stupidity of people who worked their way up honestly.

More recently the little fibs I've discovered tend to revolve around passing written instructor /TM exams (70% required), octane rating of fuel (tisk tisk), and legality/currency of working/entry visa's. (whose planet is it anyway?)
(been seeing a fair bit of other questionable behaviour but there's always later for that.:))

DZ's are wonderful places full of wonderful people . Pity they can attract the naughty kiddies as well as the good ones.

One good thing I have noticed is the naughty ones don't seem to have as much fun for as long as the good ones sorry ..... better ones.;)

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...So, Pops....you learned all that about me from one paragraph ????
You have a lot more to learn than rigging.
bozo



Yep...unless your were just joking...but there was no indication of that. How can you post something so mean-spirited and then claim innocence?




cuz he is innocent.....hes not mean spirited, hes just old and cranky.........



I am innocent . What I posted was not mean spirited at all. Just stating facts as I know them.
As for old and cranky.......Guilty.
I'm putting in a sprinkler system instead of skydiving. That would make anyone cranky :o(


bozo


bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

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I am innocent . What I posted was not mean spirited at all. Just stating facts as I know them.
As for old and cranky.......Guilty.
I'm putting in a sprinkler system instead of skydiving. That would make anyone cranky :o(


bozo



thats not a sprinkler system, yer cranky cuz yer peein on yer foot from incontinence.....


_______________________________
HK MP5SD.........silence is golden

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