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riggerrob

Pencil packing?

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I once paid for a regular repack and the rigger "didn't like" something about the diaper on my round reserve (this is another story from the old days, yawn...). But he packed it anyway, signed the data card with a "ha-ha funny" fake name, put a date on it that was already out of date and kept my $10 (which is what a round repack cost in those days). This sort of left me with my dick hangin' out at equipment check for a major boogie.

So for once, I pencil whipped it. Used the name of a friend who had gone in under a streamered reserve. Even told the guy at equipment check. In fact, I did the pencil whip job AT equipment check, with the guy's pen. He thought it was funnier than hell and OK'd my rig. This really was the old days, see what you kids are missing ? As for the rigger, he never got another dime of my business and I was happy to warn people away from him, he had a shaky enough reputation already.

But I think a rigger at the very least has the right to charge full price for every time his/her name is used. That plus a kick in the ass and maybe tell the fool to find a new rigger, or else charge an extra "just because" fee.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

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I was fortunate enough to discover that someone (a Chief Instructor / Reserve Packer ) had swapped a cypres in a rig for another and reclosed it without putting any details on the card (I repacked the reserve at no cost to the client when I discovered this) . No details of the cypres that was installed, nor service details, next or last battery details or his own details on the card to say he had done anything to the rig.>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(

I care, but cannot control if someone decides to take a rig into their loft for a re-pack and choose's to "pencil pack" with their own name and number. I care and am seriously PISSED OFF when someone does work on a rig and leaves my name and number on the card.

I learnt from this experience to seal my rigs ( not a requirement in Australia ).

I was advised that the lead seals have been implicated as potential problems in accidents by the Director of Riggers here in Oz, with the suggestion to use a paper seal.

The technique is to use the safety tie thread in the same manner but to use sticky labels folded over the knot in the safety tie instead of the lead seal.

The benifit of using a label in place of the lead seal is that I can record extra information, including the date of the pack / date of the next due pack / my own details/stamp etc.

I am still following up this incident so feel that it would be inappropriate to comment further.
I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

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... i think that the USPA repack cycle is to short...



Sir, the USPA (United States Parachute Association) does not specify repack cycles, nor do they have the authority. That is done by the US FAA (Federal Aviation Administration).

USPA (and PIA) have of late influenced the FAA to reconsider a change in the repack cycle, so perhaps this has caused the confusion.

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Why not put the number of the repack on the backside of the seal? It would just act like a seal number.

Example:
Rob Rigger packs my reserve.
It is Rob Riggers 78th reserve repack.
On the front of the seal is Rob Riggers initials and on the back of the seal is 0078 (078 or 78).


Now the number on the back of the seal should match the number on the Data Card.

This means that in order for me to "pencil pack" my Rig the number on the Data Card will not match the number on the back of the seal cause the numbers cannot be used twice by the same Rigger.

Now when they check my gear they will see a number on a seal that won't match my Data Card.

OR

I have to pull the seal off so that the next person can't make that distinction and in that case they should force a repack for not having a seal.
Derec Davies
Big_Red

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I was advised that the lead seals have been implicated as potential problems in accidents by the
Director of Riggers here in Oz, with the suggestion to use a paper seal.



What kinds of problems are the lead seals said to cause? Hard pulls/jamming the reserve pin, or
something else?

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The benifit of using a label in place of the lead seal is that I can record extra information, including
the date of the pack / date of the next due pack / my own details/stamp etc.



For someone with a big enough collection of fonts on their PC, it would also be a lot easier to forge.
Even if you had a unique rubber stamp mark on it, they could still scan it, edit it, print it back out on
sticker stock, and be good to go. I think that blank lead seals and the pliers/press that puts them on
and embosses the letters aren't _that_ hard to come by, so to some extent you could make the same
objection to the lead seals. But everybody has (or has access to) a PC and a printer.

Eule
PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

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Why not put the number of the repack on the backside of the seal? It would just act like a seal
number.



I think I like this better than the date-code idea. There are probably still some ways around it, but I think
it might work well.

Eule
PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

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I was advised that the lead seals have been implicated as potential problems in accidents by the Director of Riggers here in Oz, with the suggestion to use a paper seal.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, I have seen reserve ripcords jam - a the mouth of the housing - because of lead seals, but by that time the pin was well clear of the loop.
The only time I can fore see that being a problem is on a Racer-type container, where the housing is sewn very close to the grommet. How ever, that would require the offending rigger to ignore industry standard practice which is to seal the pin farthest from the ripcord handle.

I suspect that the whole Australian and British fear of lead seals is more related to an ancient incident where - an offending - rigger sealed a reserve with nylon E thread (8 pound) versus the red cotton safety-tie thread (4.75 pound). You cannot tell the difference between the two threads at arm's length.

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I once paid for a regular repack and the rigger "didn't like" something about the diaper on my round reserve (this is another story from the old days, yawn...)...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

I've used a few riggers since moving to Georgia 15 years ago. One time I had a new guy pack my Strong Lopo. Several months later I returned to my usual rigger & watched as he opened the container and slowly dragged the canopy out. We discovered together that the guy hadn't used the diaper. He just folded the fabric neatly and continued.

The rigger said it was (almost) just fine, and that it would have deployed, albeit a bit more abruptly than I would have preferred.

As far as pencil packing goes, I did it once, very young in my jumping career. I lived a long way from the DZ and couldn't get out of town regularly, so I forged the name of the DZO because he sold me the rig. He even called me on it, and I explained why I chose his name. (I believe he was the last rigger to pack it anyway; if not, I don't know why he wasn't more annouyed with me.)

Anyway, I didn't do it again, but there have been a few times over the years where I did invite my riggers to pencil in their own names, on their own pack jobs, and offered to pay full price.

Cheers,
Jon S.

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I was advised that the lead seals have been implicated as potential problems in accidents by the Director of Riggers here in Oz, with the suggestion to use a paper seal.

The technique is to use the safety tie thread in the same manner but to use sticky labels folded over the knot in the safety tie instead of the lead seal.

The benifit of using a label in place of the lead seal is that I can record extra information, including the date of the pack / date of the next due pack / my own details/stamp etc.

Quote



Interesting concern. It was my impression that the problem with a lead seal is that the safety thread added several pounds of pull force. The BPA came up with another way to tie the thread that eliminates the added pull force. They spell it out in a pdf document available at http://bpa.org.uk/forms/docs/Form%20215%20-%20BPA%20Reserve%20Sealing%20Method.doc. I learned about that issue here on dropzone.com and tried the new thread method a few times, but have gone babck to the old-school way used by most riggers here in the USA.

FAA regulations (65.133) require that a rigger have a seal with an identifying mark and a seal press. That seems to suggest that the paper method wouldn't work here.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

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. I might even yank a ripcord, and if someone wants to throw down because I do it, it's all good with me.
You don't forge my name and put me at risk legally
and then act like a dick head when called on it.



First blush my thought was "well he's a dickhead, and he BETTER be a BIG dickhead if he pulled my r.h. but after some time I came to a different but decision.

1. If my rigger couldn't get to my re-pack, I'd pencil pack it in a heart beat but I'd take it back to that rigger and have it done. Rigger keeps the re-pack I don't miss the boogie (or whatever)

2. Legal issue, I'm not a rigger so educate me here. When someone goes in what "happens" to the rigger. If the reserve wasn't used is it taken apart? Is the rigger called in by the FAA? If someone pen packed there reserve how does that effect the rigger when the rigger can prove that they didn't pack it?

I think a great poll question would be: If you had a long term customer who you told you couldn't get to the rig before the weekend boogie, and they pen packed the rig what would you do?

I'll bet that most rigger would respone..."just get it to me next week"

Just my thoughts.
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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What kinds of problems are the lead seals said to cause? Hard pulls/jamming the reserve pin, or
something else?



IIRC it was to do with seals and hardhousings indeed.

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For someone with a big enough collection of fonts on their PC, it would also be a lot easier to forge.
Even if you had a unique rubber stamp mark on it, they could still scan it, edit it, print it back out on
sticker stock, and be good to go. I think that blank lead seals and the pliers/press that puts them on
and embosses the letters aren't _that_ hard to come by, so to some extent you could make the same
objection to the lead seals. But everybody has (or has access to) a PC and a printer.



They may have a computer with many fonts however, if they can forge my illegible handwriting and signature then they are doing very well indeed.
I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

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1. If my rigger couldn't get to my re-pack, I'd pencil pack it in a heart beat but I'd take it back to that rigger and have it done. Rigger keeps the re-pack I don't miss the boogie (or whatever)



If any of my customers pencil packed by forging my name, i would no longer be there rigger. I would tell them to find someone else.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

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1. If my rigger couldn't get to my re-pack, I'd pencil pack it in a heart beat but I'd take it back to that rigger and have it done. Rigger keeps the re-pack I don't miss the boogie (or whatever)



If any of my customers pencil packed by forging my name, i would no longer be there rigger. I would tell them to find someone else.



That's why I don't have you pack mine Sunny, this way I can sign you're name and you never seem to notice:P:P:P

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***2. Legal issue, I'm not a rigger so educate me here. When someone goes in what "happens" to the rigger. If the reserve wasn't used is it taken apart? Is the rigger called in by the FAA? If someone pen packed there reserve how does that effect the rigger when the rigger can prove that they didn't pack it? (quote)

Why would you even want a rigger to have to deal with the fed's and local cops & maybe your familys lawers to have to prove you didn't pack it.

Like it's been two years from your last repack ( yes I know people who have and still do it) in that time I have started a new logbook, now you just made a big mess in the dirt with my seal and a bunch of forged sig's using my name and my seal, and your dead cypres didn't fire, even if I can prove I didn't pack it you just made for a very long day for me and I have go dig up my records to find the info the feds and local cops want to see in order to prove it.

So if you think me taking me seal back or yanking a handle is being a dickhead fine, I think anyone who would sign my name is dickhead with no respect.

Why would I pull a handle, to force them to get a repack and not just replace a seal and sign another name, I have known jumpers to help them selfs to a rigging kit when the rigger wasn't in the loft, another act of no respect!
It's no different then a fucking scum bag who would seal someones gear or laptop.

And I would never pack that persons rig ever again or sew a bootie or even give them a rubber band!

As I see it that seal still belongs to me, you didn't buy it with the cost of a repack, your renting for 120 days, it still has my mark/number mark and is traced to me should you go in, there for if you want to disrespect me and sign my name, I have no reason to respect you or your gear and I will get my seal back one way or the other.

I have helped people to get thur a weekend when in need and took the rig with me at the end of the day/weekend, but those people are at least honest and came to me and didn't go behind my back and sign my name, I can respect that kind of person and will help them if I can to a point.

~
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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>Forging someone's name on a packing data card is no different
>than forging his name on a check. Forgery is forgery.

Nonsense. People who forge your name on a check are stealing from you. And that is different than forging your name on a packing data card.

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Just a more general comment -

I agree with the general premise that it's unethical to forge someone else's name to avoid getting a reserve repacked. That being said, if you _are_ going to do it, use a new packing data card, put your _own_ name and _own_ SS number on there. That way if there is an incident, it is very clear who has been maintaining (or not maintaining) the rig. (It goes without saying that it's better to just get it repacked by a rigger every 120 days.)

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Actually I'll just go with Bill V, suggestion - now everybody is happy. If I bonce then nobody has a problem with the data card. I respect your point(s) Some times if you don't jump all the time a re-pack can and will slip up on you.

My rigger would rather have the pack job, I'd rather have this rigger pack it. The rigger doesn't "allow" me or "tell me" to pen pack it, neither does he have a fit and report me to the FAA pull my r.h. ect, ect, ect.

BTW my reserve has never been out for more than three weeks. (over a ten year period)

In the end it w/b, of course, your decision. I'm sure you'd make this clear up front. I wouldn't use you as a rigger and we'd both be happy.

Next week I'll have a spare data card :P

Problem over.
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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120 days is bullshit. I have extended my cycle to 1 year. There are no gremlins that climb into your reserve container and create line overs after 120 days.

Pencil packing is nothing personal against my rigger. It has to do with my problem with authority.

Take good care of your rig, and it will be fine.

If you go swimming with it in the pond, get it repacked.

When you go to get it repacked destroy the old packing data card. This is so simple.

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If you knew how many times temp pins and other things have been found at the next repack cycle when a rigger just fucked up, after all we're only human and can make a mistake like anyone, you might think twice about,

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There are no gremlins that climb into your reserve container



So I would have to disagree with you, but hey you can't see it on my back.

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Pencil packing is nothing personal against my rigger. It has to do with my problem with authority.



Why don't you just get your own ticket instead of putting your rigger you call a friend ,at risk.
I guess is your just to damm lazy to earn it, but I don't you so I can't say for sure.

Even though I would agree with you a reserve can be kept longer then 120 days and be safe to jump, again there have been many a fuck up found at the next repack and the fuck up was made by very good riggers.
Then there is the wannabee riggers who are to lazy to do the work needed to earn the ticket and only did a few pack jobs then dropped out, but still help them selfs to tools and a seal press to help themselfs or a friend out, (YES I know a few of them)

I know a 16yr old (he looks 21) who took his dads rigging kit and seal press to a boogie in order to rig, and no he didn't have permission to have it.
Let say you were there and let him repack your rig And he left a molor strap in it, you really want to wait for a whole year to maybe find it at a repack if your that lucky to find it then and not when you cutaway 6mo latter.

~
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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