Problem with dropzone / operator

[kelpdiver 2]

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Re: Oxygen

People make jumps EVERYDAY from 15K WITHOUT SUPPLEMENTAL OXYGEN. As a student, your concerns about oxygen are irrrelevant.

Oxygen would do nothing. I live at that altitude!

Again irrelevent to the pissing match, but living there is entirely different then flying up to it. The body acclimatizes. People can climb to the top of Everest without oxygen, but if you took someone from the coast to the 20s in an hour, they'd pass out quickly.

In the most extreme personal experience, a friend developed HAPE in less than 24 hours visiting Tahoe, which is at a mere 6k and change. (physiology was definitely a cause)

[rasmack 0]

I can't help but notice that this has become a pure word-against-word situation. When that is the case, we the spectators tend to factor in a number of things to quantify the credibility of the parties. In this specific incident I can't help but notice that one side is practically shouting while the other is remaining calm.

I think this thread is doing noone any good.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[dump_master 0]

Noted FlyingDodo went to the trouble to mask his own email address in the forum posts, all the while leaving Voltage’s email address fully intact for the whole worldwideweb to see. (Voltage's profile does not list an email address so I have to assume he preferred it kept private.)

This action by the owner / operator of Extreme Sports Café / Skydive Thailand, displays a total lack of regard for a customer’s privacy… whether that customer is right or wrong.

I'll be looking elsewhere to conduct my own jump training. Thank you.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Noted FlyingDodo went to the trouble to mask his own email address in the forum posts, all the while leaving Voltage’s email address fully intact for the whole worldwideweb to see. (Voltage's profile does not list an email address so I have to assume he preferred it kept private.)

This action by the owner / operator of Extreme Sports Café / Skydive Thailand, displays a total lack of regard for a customer’s privacy… whether that customer is right or wrong.

I'll be looking elsewhere to conduct my own jump training. Thank you.

You obviously just created this screenname to make this post. Are you "voltage" in cognito?

"voltage" started this thread, by choosing to take his (your?) customer-vs.-merchant dispute public. I'm not taking sides in the dispute itself, but "voltage" made his (your?) bed by starting the thread "for the whole worldwide web to see", so now he (you?) has to lie in it.
When you decide to play hardball, don't be shocked when you get hit by a pitch.

[dump_master 0]

No, sorry, I'm not Voltage. I registered today and created this screen name to search and post on this forum. My intention was to search the forum for schools in Thailand. Lo and behold, what should I see on page one!

I'm usually not in the habit of making such negative posts, especially the initial post, to a new forum I just joined. My only mistake so far, I got caught up in this debate.

Did I break a rule? Did I not state something that is evident and truthful about the matter which I posted?

Was your referral to "hardball" a veiled threat?

[flyingdodo 0]

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Noted FlyingDodo went to the trouble to mask his own email address in the forum posts, all the while leaving Voltage’s email address fully intact for the whole worldwideweb to see. (Voltage's profile does not list an email address so I have to assume he preferred it kept private.)

This action by the owner / operator of Extreme Sports Café / Skydive Thailand, displays a total lack of regard for a customer’s privacy… whether that customer is right or wrong.

I'll be looking elsewhere to conduct my own jump training. Thank you.

For the record..

That was not deliberate. I really did not do that deliberately.
My apologies to Andreas for that.

I have since tried to edit the post to cover his up also, but cannot edit the post any more.. If an admin would be so kind I would appreciate it if they would mask Andreas' email address too..

Flying Dodo
'Always on the edge of extinction!'

[Andy9o8 0]

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Was your referral to "hardball" a veiled threat?

I'm going to be charitable to you and not presume you're simply being obtuse.
I will presume (a) you're not an American, and therefore aren't used to American usage of English, (b) perhaps English is not your native language, and (c) you're not familiar with idioms of baseball.

1. Americans say "you" when referring to "one". The reference was to voltage not to "you" ( whoever you are).

2. "Hardball" is a North American, baseball-originated idiom for playing a game that is tough & unforgiving.

My point was, voltage started the thread in a public forum, and he very publicly made some very harsh accusations about the DZ. So he started the game. Therefore he (or anyone else) shouldn't be surprised when the DZ responds by being pretty tough themselves.

[dump_master 0]

Nothing like the proposition of lost revenues to make a man see the error of his ways, eh FlyingDodo?

BTW:
What does the word "extiction" mean? You should know since you're on the "edge of it." It IS your signature file so please enlighten us. And maybe YOU should start using oxygen above 10000 feet too. Not to mention a good spell checker at sea level.

[dump_master 0]

You presumptions are unfounded Andy. (Now I am being charitable.)

[Andy9o8 0]

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You presumptions are unfounded Andy. (Now I am being charitable.)

Sighh. Well, now, that's unfortunate. For if you are truly accustomed to American-usage English, and you truly do understand what "playing harball" means, then it means that when you, rather amazingly, said:

>Was your referral to "hardball" a veiled threat?

...you actually were being obtuse.

[voltage 0]

I have no problem with my e-mail adress being here. He should have asked me, though. But obviously it was a mistake. I am not posting under other names.

We have reached an agreement. Danniel (my instructor) made a very kind offer to be here from 1st to 3rd. So after all it looks like things are going to be fine and I may have the chance to graduate as a skydiver after all.


I am truly sorry for all this mess (here online). We agreed to take it out alltogether. That is want we will do if there is a way.

Andreas

[dump_master 0]

What is "unfortunate" Andy, is the fact you are "batting 1000" for wrong answers about me.

1. You assumed I created a screen name just for this post. I did not.
2. You assumed I was "Voltage" in cognito (sic). I am not.
3. You assumed English was my second language. It is my first.
4. You assumed I wasn't from North America. I am.

5. And I know exactly what "playing hard ball" means and I never pretended not to. I queried, "Was your referral to "hard ball" a veiled threat?" That sentence did not imply I didn't know what "hard ball" is. It asks the question, "Are you threatening me?"

Andy, have you ever had a dispute with a store, your bank, a doctor bill, etc? What if one of those entities posted your phone number and / or address on their office wall (or on their corporate website) for the public to see? Wouldn't that bother you?

Voltage had an issue with Skydive Thailand. He brought it here to this forum to try to get it resolved. The operator of Skydive Thailand did not safeguard Voltage's personal info when he posted his email. This would not have been so obvious had FlyingDodo not masked his own email address. An oversight he claims. How very convenient. That's what prompted my post.

Yes, as you said, Voltage started this post. My question: Should a person give up the right to privacy if posting on this forum? I should certainly hope not.

[bbarnhouse 0]

First off let me say that I hope this situation gets resolved between the two parties...privately.

I ascribe to the idea that anything sent in email, said on skype or other voip, in IM or sent via PM on this site is and should be considered private and confidential.

As to Andy's reference to "hard ball" I do not believe it came across as a threat at all, veiled or otherwise.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I queried, "Was your referral to "hard ball" a veiled threat?" That sentence did not imply I didn't know what "hard ball" is. It asks the question, "Are you threatening me?"

You clearly have not the slightest idea what you're talking about.
This is foolish, and I will not argue the point further.

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Edit: Voltage has now taken it upon himself to send me annoying PMs. I'm not remotely interested. I've blocked both of you from sending me any further PMs.
For a couple of newcomers who only signed on to DZ.com for the first time today, neither of you are behaving very well. Fortunately, this is a moderated forum.

[spicypete 0]

i am a canadian, and i was planning the same course as you took, but this has certainly made me reconsider... please post your results, let us know if they did make it possible for you to finish. how they treated you was unacceptable, no matter what the reasons, they need to be a little more customer friendly. i will be watching to see if they made it possible for you to complete your course, or not.
that will certainly influence my choice as to where i will take the course.
sincerely Peter Norman... vancouver canada.

[Andy9o8 0]

Interesting that everyone who criticizes this DZ seems to have joined DZ.com just today. Very interesting.

[voltage 0]

Well, this is the followup.

Yesterday I called Danniel Lee, my main jumpmaster, in Singapur. He was very professional in his attitude and offered me to come 1st to 3rd to Pattaya and give me the chance to finish the course. As I got it he wanted to take the extra costs to his own account. Thanks again for that offer. You are very kind.

I took his offer. He said I had to confirm it with Stephen, though, as Stephen is running the business.
I did, I expressed that I am glad it worked out. I asked him he should take out the forged e-mail. He asked me to take out everything else.
I am fine with that.

I deleted the last posting I had done, but found out it is impossible to delete other postings as they are to old, as well as impossible to edit them. I suppose for the same reason, but did not find any hints in the FAQ etc.

I informed Stephen about this. He came back with an answer that said basically, I first have to retract calling him a lia here in public. Before he will not make any efforts to get the course running. I was quite shocked by this, because there would have been most possible a solution he could have done this while keeping face.

I am an honest person. I said he forged an e-mail and I will not lie against myself. The best thing I can do is to state things as they are. This is not about my ego, it is about my feeling of justice. I was ready to do it a way he could keep his face. I cannot twist myself just to get to the course. I truly wanted to get to the course, after I told Danniel I am not feeling well with being in the same airplane as Stephen. He assured me that the power to overcome this was in my mind, and Stephen would not act as any part of the teaching. With that said and my trust in Danniel, I was ready to go.

I spoke to Danniel later, he agreed to talk to Stephen about this issue. We agreed he would call me until about 8am this morning if Stephen is willing to run the course.

So I will finally not be able to complete the course. I will not retract from the truth, I will try to back it up as much as possible. Anyone interested have a look at the screenshot from my Outlook Sentbox. Anyone, please ask some of my friends. I can provide you with contact details.

I am dedicated to graduate, and hopefully I will do in Germany. About this issue, this will be last post for a while. This issue may have been ugly, but it is just necessary to have it here in the public. It is the first kind of justice.

Andreas Bauer
[email protected]

[skinnyshrek 0]

Damn, all this hate. As MLK once said..fucking hell where did that bullet come from

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[kelpdiver 2]

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Nothing like the proposition of lost revenues to make a man see the error of his ways, eh FlyingDodo?

BTW:
What does the word "extiction" mean? You should know since you're on the "edge of it." It IS your signature file so please enlighten us. And maybe YOU should start using oxygen above 10000 feet too. Not to mention a good spell checker at sea level.

For a guy that claims to be a disinterested party looking for a place to learn....well, that's total bullshit, isn't it?

If you are for real, I feel for whoever gets you as a customer.

[spicypete 0]

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Interesting that everyone who criticizes this DZ seems to have joined DZ.com just today. Very interesting.

is it interesting that i come here to read and not to speak? well sometimes when we read we find something like this that makes us want to speak... and what do we do when we want to have a say? we join as that is a condition placed upon us if we want to reply to a post. is that so interesting? it is interesting that you may be implying that nobody can have a voice unless they have signed up prior to this. Also, please do not try and imply that i am signing in with multiple personalities. i am peter norman, www.spicypete.com. i have a voice even if this is the first time i have felt the desire to respond in this forum.

[dump_master 0]

I noticed nobody here made an effort to welcome you SpicyPete. Please allow me to be the first.
"WELCOME to the Drop Zone boards SpicyPete!"

Dump Master
"If you're gonna play hard ball with me, you had better wear a cup!"

[flyingdodo 0]

Hello spicypete,

Thought I would clarify a few things for you... We try to be as upfront as we can with all our clients..

Firstly a little history..

(Feel free to skip this, as I have details below about our payment terms which may be of more interest to you.)

Skydive Thailand does not make a profit at the moment. Of course we intend to in future, but for now are just trying to bring civilian skydiving to Thailand on a regular basis. To get the permissions (just the permissions to operate in Thailand) you require almost 500,000$$ (US) in paid up capital. The non-refundable government fees alone for 'registering', and 'setting up' the paperwork for this kind of operation is US$25,000. We also have to have a commercially rated pilot to fly our plane, not a hobby pilot (and I don't mean hobby pilots are any better or worse than commercially rated pilots - just cheaper!).

We also have to file a permission to operate (separate from flight plans) each and every day we wish to operate, and this incurs more government fees... and so on...

So it's not quite as simple here, as in some places to run a Drop Zone..

Ok.. So more studenty related stuff..

Skydive Thailand charges a non-refundable booking deposit for an AFF course. This is because we must schedule air field time, obtain permissions to run a course in that period, schedule instructor time and travel, and also secure plane time.

Our instructors come from outside of Thailand (there is simply not the business for instructors to set up shop here and do all the required work and residency permits yet), so we must also make it worth their while and time to come and run these courses..

We send out a full information pack to any interested student explaining all of our terms. We also send out a course agreement, and schedule once a booking is made(most arranged for a students travel / stay requirements as we have a lot of transient students). And we are happy to answer questions, give advice, and send info out as many times as a student questions us.

When a student arrives at the accommodation we also arrange (if they wish) we then sit and have a coffee with them, and introduce the staff and their instructors. We then take them to the Drop Zone as it's a bit outside town. Every day we run students back and forth from their flat / hotel / whatever... We also arrange meals in the evening and social events and try to make the whole thing a little bit like a club of friends. Heck, some of our students have even crashed in my flat in Bangkok just before they flew out, as they arrived back in town late and could not find a convenient hotel.

When a student comes to the Drop Zone if at that point they want to quit they can walk away, and the non-refundable 10% deposit is the only thing they lose. We will then immediately make a loss on the course, as instructors expenses, paperwork fees, and a portions of all airfield and plane fees are all paid by us upfront.

Once the course starts we expect the full fees for that course to be paid. They are non-refundable at that point. However, if a student wants to take a break they can, and come back and join in on any future schedueled course at no further expense.

They can also quit the course and recieve a credit for the outstanding poriton of the course, and then transfer that to any other Drop Zone / Instructor that we work with, anywhere in the world.

The only condition we have is we will not refund cash.

There is an old saying in Thailand, that you never get a cash refund. This is true I am afraid. Although to be honest it's not that uncommon the world over. You will however, always be offered a valid alternative.

Of course if we cannot supply the products or services we have promised, or we screw up in some way then we will refund the course fees and deposit for any course. There has to be some leeway here, and a few days bad weather, or permissions / plane problems for short periods do not constitute us 'screwing up'. This is also in our standard terms and conditions. In Andreas' case we did not 'screw up' in my opinion, apart from we were not able to control the escalation of his anger.

With regards to our finanacial policies... There is no other way we can do business. So if you feel that is not good for you then please do feel free to look elsewhere.

Also, if you, or anyone else, did want to visit us, but were still unsure because of this one thread on the entire internet, we are more than willing to let you speak to previous students who have consented to be referees for us. You can even visit our Drop Zone as a guest anytime you are in Thailand, and or speak to me on the phone...

Do let me know if that answers any of your queries, or if you need any clarification from me.

And thank you for Drop Zone [dot] com for letting us have our say here. We feel really sorry for Andreas. Danniel and I had a long chat on the phone about it today to try once more to find a solution, but Andreas does not seem to want to work with us any more...

Flying Dodo
'Always on the edge of extinction!'

[Orange1 0]

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For a couple of newcomers who only signed on to DZ.com for the first time today, neither of you are behaving very well. .

The sceptic in me also wonders about the sudden rash of north americans apparently looking to do training in Thailand, given about a gazillion DZs on their doorstep?

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[LittleOne 0]

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When a student arrives at the accommodation we also arrange (if they wish) we then sit and have a coffee with them, and introduce the staff and their instructors. We then take them to the Drop Zone as it's a bit outside town. Every day we run students back and forth from their flat / hotel / whatever... We also arrange meals in the evening and social events and try to make the whole thing a little bit like a club of friends.

I visited Skydive Thailand twice last May. I was not a student but everyone bent over backwards to welcome me and make the arrangements as easy as possible. This includes the DZO and Instructor referred to in this thread. Danniel made all of the arrangements from the airport to the hotel, no mean feat given the bustle of BKK. Stephen helped me with the hotel reservations via email before I ever met him and then he greeted us at the hotel when we rolle in at 1 am. It extends to the owner of the airport, the manifest girl, the pilot and the other fun jumpers.

I cannot comment on the particulars of this case but I want to take this opportunity to let other people know that if you go to Skydive Thailand, you will be welcomed warmly and are very likely to have a blast. No, there is no confusing this dz with Perris but between the people, the drop dead gorgeous view (it's right by the beach and you can see Bangkok from altitude), dirt cheap accomodations (and clean too), food to die for (cheap too) and serious night life in Pattaya (cheap too, in many ways), the total experience makes Skydive Thailand special.

Just don't eat the durian (sp?)!!

Arianna

[tustinr 1]

Voltage sounds like sour grapes to me mate !

Stephen your course sounds great and the conditions reasonable considering your circumstances. Seems like you have tried to meet this guy halfway and he doesn't want to play along.

The customer from hell ! Nothing you do will make this guy happy.

Unfortunately though it may have been to the detriment of your business - sometimes its better to pay these guys so that they do disappear and you can breath again. Sucks !

Cheers
Rich

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Everything that happens to you in life is your teacher. The secret is to learn to sit at the feet of your life and be taught.