FAA Decision

[IanHarrop 37]

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Joking or not, the important distinction to make here is that he was signing and sealing a rig previously packed by another rigger. Presumably a rig he had no knowledge of it's care or use before it was brought to him.

A jumper signing the last riggers name on their own card - not so bad, provided they know how to care for their gear, and it had been treated well in the last 120 days.

A rigger signing his own card on his own rig - also not a problem.

A rigger signing and sealing a rig which might be mis-rigged, mis-treated, or otherwise damaged before coming into his care - just plain fucked up.

I'm sorry but I have a problem with anybody signing to say they did something when they didn't.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[mjosparky 3]

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A rigger signing his own card on his own rig - also not a problem.

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the important distinction to make here is that he was signing and sealing a rig previously packed by another rigger.

Dave,

I am going to have to go with some of the other posts. Anytime you falsify something it is "just plain fucked up" to use your term. It shows a willingness to cheat and lie. And the is what it is, lying and cheating. It makes me wonder how many other things this person is willing to cheat and lie about.

If you are not willing to do the job, don't take it on.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I don't think he ment it is ok.He was just comparing different scenarios.I am one that believes if a 1 year cycle is good enough for the Airforce Academy it's good enough for me but thats another decussion.


.

[packerboy 3]

Pencil packing when all parties involved (First rigger to pack, jumper, second rigger to pack being the same as the first) is one thing and a whole other moral debate. I personally only agree with a pencil pack on the riggers own personal gear that the cycle of possesion leads only to them.

I pay my rigger to inspect my gear and pack my reserve parachute, not sign a card. Doing so without the jumpers knowledge is seriously f'ed up.

If someone went in with a reserve malfunction on one of those rigs I would bet someone could be charged with criminal negligence causing death. The rigger and the dropzone that the rigger worked for, even if they had no idea he was doing it. If it was proved that a pencil pack had occured (not sure how it would be) there would be people going to jail (and there should be). If he pencil packed my reserve with a fatal flaw in it without my knowledge I would pursue legal action against him.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[billvon 2,380]

>It makes me wonder how many other things this person is willing
>to cheat and lie about.

Would you recommend people not use a certain rigger if they refer to clouds as 'industrial haze' to hide possibke violations of FAA regulations?

[Fast 0]

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Pencil packing when all parties involved (First rigger to pack, jumper, second rigger to pack being the same as the first) is one thing and a whole other moral debate. I personally only agree with a pencil pack on the riggers own personal gear that the cycle of possesion leads only to them.

I pay my rigger to inspect my gear and pack my reserve parachute, not sign a card. Doing so without the jumpers knowledge is seriously f'ed up.

If someone went in with a reserve malfunction on one of those rigs I would bet someone could be charged with criminal negligence causing death. The rigger and the dropzone that the rigger worked for, even if they had no idea he was doing it. If it was proved that a pencil pack had occured (not sure how it would be) there would be people going to jail (and there should be). If he pencil packed my reserve with a fatal flaw in it without my knowledge I would pursue legal action against him.

I will just clarify that the rigger in question in this thread was NOT employed as a rigger by the stated dropzone or any dropzone to the best of my knowledge. As far as I am to know the work he did was only private for jumpers who needed reserve repacks and other rigging services.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[NelKel 0]

If someone went in with a reserve malfunction on one of those rigs I would bet someone could be charged with criminal negligence causing death. The rigger and the dropzone that the rigger worked for, even if they had no idea he was doing it. If it was proved that a pencil pack had occured (not sure how it would be) there would be people going to jail (and there should be). If he pencil packed my reserve with a fatal flaw in it without my knowledge I would pursue legal action against him.<<<<<

Riggers keep logbooks on their jobs. SO if a jumper or rigger pencil packed and an incident occurs. The rigger could use his logbook as proof. IE: No Mr. FAA my logbook shows that the last time I repacked his reserve was 1 year ago. All of these signatures on HIS data card are forgeries.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[stratostar 5]

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No Mr. FAA my logbook shows that the last time I repacked his reserve was 1 year ago. All of these signatures on HIS data card are forgeries.

If only it would go that easy, however I personally know it wouldn't go that easy and there would be a lot more looking into our records and matching data and times and places ect, even with people not involved,ie your data card.

While we maybe able to prove we didn't pack it, we are left to deal with the cops and feds while your dead ass is laying out in the dirt! So why would anyone want to put their rigger and or friend(s) thur that whole deal in the first place.

If you don't want to pay for a repack or want to pencil pack, get your own damm ticket at least then it would be your dead ass in the dirt with your seal and sig on it.

If people make it clear to riggers that doing so is wrong and they will turn them into the the feds for doing so, and stop acting like it's ok to ask your rigger to do it, then riggers won't be doing it.

As long as people think it is ok to pencil, and riggers go along with it, we will have riggers out there like the dude that got busted.

So far everyone who says they don't have an issue with it, didn't have the rigger the thread is about working on there rig, but as one poster has said, he didn't dig it happening on his rig.


~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

A little trivia for you folks.

In TSO C23b there is a req'ment for an internal packing data pocket. This is so the rigger could/can put a 2nd-filled-out packing card there & then another one in the outside pocket. This was so that the 'officials' could open a container and see who packed it last (like in really last) and when.

I have not seen an inside packing data card in a reserve container nearly 30 years. People just quit doing it.

In later TSO's (C23c & C23d) this internal packing data pocket is not req'd.

Jerry

[mark 102]

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In TSO C23b there is a req'ment for an internal packing data pocket. This is so the rigger could/can put a 2nd-filled-out packing card there & then another one in the outside pocket. This was so that the 'officials' could open a container and see who packed it last (like in really last) and when.

But as you know there was never any requirement to actually put a card in the pocket!

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I have not seen an inside packing data card in a reserve container nearly 30 years. People just quit doing it.

I can think of at least one popular rig still being manufactured under C23b. I suppose the AAD pocket would satisfy the letter of the law.

RWS Tandems (Vector and Sigma) have internal pockets that look as they might be intended for data cards.

Mark

[stratostar 5]

Yea I think I might start sticking a second card in the cypres pouch and not telling the owners it is there,CYA.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Eule 0]

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(You'd also think the government could go straight to PDF instead of printing out and scanning back in, but there you go.)

What makes you think the "government" printed and scanned.

In Word, File->Properties->Summary-tab has "DOT/FAA" in the Company field. (See attached screen shot, done at work.) This is trivial to forge, but since most people don't even know it's there, they don't do it. I figured if USPA (or other entity) printed or scanned it, it would have some other entry there.

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[definition as presented at http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=interoperability ]

I was thinking more along the lines of the definitions that pop up when you do http://www.google.com/search?q=define:interoperability .

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Do you think that one little letter is part of a Weapons system?

No. "This shirt is a munition", though.

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Word works just fine for most people.

Not jumping out of airplanes works just fine for most people, too. Then there are the crazy ones, that don't have a program that understands Word documents on their system. Maybe they run Windows and don't feel that Microsoft needs any more of their money. Or maybe they're really crazy, like me, and run Linux on an 11-year-old PC, which can read Word documents slooooowly or PDF documents more quickly. (A good PC is at least 25 jump tickets!) Then there's the open vs. closed standards thing, and other arguments that only a geek can love.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[packerboy 3]

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Riggers keep logbooks on their jobs. SO if a jumper or rigger pencil packed and an incident occurs. The rigger could use his logbook as proof. IE: No Mr. FAA my logbook shows that the last time I repacked his reserve was 1 year ago. All of these signatures on HIS data card are forgeries.

I am talking about the rigger in question concerning the title of this thread not some hypothetical pencil pack your own rig thing and screw your rigger.

I take my rig to this guy for a reserve INSPECTION AND REPACK and he just takes it into his loft away from my prying eyes, puts his stamp on it, signs the card and hands it back to me and charges me $60 and leaves me believing he had done a full proper repack. Meanwhile unbeknownst to anyone, my Cypres battery has exploded and acid has leaked out and eaten a hole the size of a bowling ball in my reserve parachute.

Thats fucking negligence. Will it say in his riggers logbook that he packed it? Do I give a shit what his little black book says? His legal seal and signature is on the card. I'm sure handwriting experts can prove either way. As far as I'm concerned he just cut the brake lines in my car.

Like I said, Joe Blow who wants to go to a boogie and his reserve expires 2 days before, who asks his rigger to hook him up is a whole other moral debate, one that I have not been around the sport long enough to really be informed and involved in.

A rigger doing it behind jumpers backs (no pun intended) when they are expecting and paying for a complete inspection on their lifesaving equipment should be considered criminal.

My 2 cents.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[riggerrob 558]

There is a very simple way to prevent riggers from pencil-packing.
Walk into his loft and pull your reserve ripcord, in front of him.

[stratostar 5]

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There is a very simple way to prevent riggers from pencil-packing.
Walk into his loft and pull your reserve ripcord, in front of him.

And pull the canopy out of the free bag.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Praetorian 1]

In the case of the "rigger" in question, each of my 3 "repacks" was preceded by me pulling my handles in front of him, he always carefully handeled the freebag(which never really left the container) and the pilot... I figured it was to protect my gear ... actually it was so the freebag was still in place and he could just close the container, put a new seal on it, charge me and call it good.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Mark,

Re: But as you know there was never any requirement to actually put a card in the pocket!

When I went through rigger training I was taught that one had to put a packing data card into the internal pocket. And I did it for many years; then noticed lots of reserves coming for repacks without the internal card and I just followed suit.

No to argue, but where/how have you come to that reasoning?

Jerry

[stratostar 5]

Yep I kind of thought that might be the case with some people and why it is a good idea to unpack it from the free bag.

Sorry to hear you were lied to and placed in an unsafe riggers hands by being fooled.
No matter what that shit is not cool to be doing.

So when you taking the Sr. rigger course?

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mark 102]

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Not to argue, but where/how have you come to that reasoning?

Well, of course to argue, but that sharpens up our reasoning!
Here's a point for me: FAR 65.131(c). "Each .. rigger who packs a parachute shall write on the parachute packing record attached to the parachute..." "Record" is singular, implying a single card.

Here's a point for you: NAS-804 4.2.4. "If the inner record card can be read from the outside of the pack because of transparent materials, only the inner pocket need be provided." Implying, of course, that there must be an outer record card as well.

Here's a point for me: AS8015A 4.2.1 "... [T]he stowage container shall be provided with a parachute data card pocket constructed such that the card will not be lost but will be readily accessible." No mention of an inside or not-readily-accessible pocket. Would later versions of AS8015 be similar?

Thanks for calling me out on this -- I hadn't read that section of Poynter's for years.

Mark

[packerboy 3]

I don't need to do that, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that both riggers that I use do a full proper professional job. I doubt either one of them would pencil pack for me even if I asked. I believe you know them both. Will McCarthy and Gilles Dutrisac.

Maybe I'm thinking of a different Rob. Steeve Mavre still flying for you guys out there?

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Mark,

Since I have yet to get my flame-retardent suit, I am not 'calling out' anyone on a world-wide forum.

I like to think (probably some fantasy on my part) that I am providing some information/education whenever I post here.

I do have very strong opinions on a number of things but you will know them when you read them.

Jerry

[mjosparky 3]

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>It makes me wonder how many other things this person is willing
>to cheat and lie about.

Would you recommend people not use a certain rigger if they refer to clouds as 'industrial haze' to hide possibke possible violations of FAA regulations?

Apples & oranges. But that might apply to a pilot that does.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Praetorian 1]

I'm curious, in the end what is going to happen to John? USPA, State, Federal?

I'm wavering between extreemly vengeful and fairly forgiving... because I was not actually hurt I'm having trouble holding a grudge (something I've never been good at) that said I'm still pissed off and am curious what people think should be / will be the out come?

USPA.. membership?
State... criminal charges?
Federal .. Criminal charges? these are FEDERAL documents that have been forged
No one that I am aware of was actually hurt, but negligence charges?

I'm not personally interiested in civil action, but I'm not sure I would say the same if insted of a pencil packing a good rig, he had misrigged a total for me... Wadda ya all think?

edited to fix some grammer

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[billvon 2,380]

>Apples & oranges.

Why? You said that if someone cheats and lies (and surely saying clouds are industrial haze to avoid FAA problems is cheating and lying) that they could not be trusted. Going through a cloud could cause the deaths of not just one person, but everyone on board the plane they strike. Why trust them when they lie about something that could kill a dozen people, but call them untrustworthy when they lie about something that could kill one?

[stratostar 5]

Those of us on the outside would have a hard time giving an answer right now, I don't think we know the scope of how many people were pencil whipped and or misrigged.
The extent of the violations would change my answer,as to what should be done to him.
There is at least a good size fine heading his way and having his ticket taken for some time if not forever.
I doubt the uspa would do anything to him, seeing their lack of action on far worse repeated violations of the FARs.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo