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popsjumper

Flag Jumps?

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For you experienced guys...is there some general formula to use to determine the amount of weight needed for a flag to hang properly?

Say, so much weight per sq. ft. of flag or something like that? I guess you must also consider the material that the flag is made from, too, eh?

You can see that on my first flag jump I didn't have enough weight for the flag and it looks more like a streamer than a flag.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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We generally use 2 clips, one at top and one at the bottom for the smaller flags. I clip one end to a rubber band on my rig and the other to a riser. The rubber band is so that the connection point will break in case of cut-away.

On a larger garrison flag one of our demo jumpers uses a 40 pound weight and the system is deployed from a large duffel bag.


BSBD
Home of the Alabama Gang

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Here's a pic. This is a 400 sf flag, with 40 lbs weight under it. Deployed form a specifically designed harness/container.

Picture taken over McConnell AFB Wichita Kansas, and the Kansas Aviation Museum. How many planes can you identify?
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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For you experienced guys...is there some general formula to use to determine the amount of weight needed for a flag to hang properly?

Say, so much weight per sq. ft. of flag or something like that? I guess you must also consider the material that the flag is made from, too, eh?

You can see that on my first flag jump I didn't have enough weight for the flag and it looks more like a streamer than a flag.



***

There is a somewhat of formula to determine the optimum weight for a flag, and it's kind of a 'sliding scale' so to speak.

Other factors to consider is the speed of the canopy and the lanyard length.

You can lessen the amount of suspended weight needed by lengthening the lanyard to a degree.

Too long of a lanyard and you will get way too much swing during turns...

You have to kind of find a middle ground that works with the canopy you are using.

Attached is a pic of a 2500 sqft Flag, flown on a 'Set 400' at usually about 1/4 brakes.

Notice there is no suspended weight hanging off the bottom, 40-50 pound chunk of weight swinging around at the end of a lanyard is a hazard.

There are other much better ways to do it.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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As Jim said there are many factors. One is where the weight is located. This is a picture of a 600 sq. ft. commercially made flag with only 18 pounds. The 3 areas marked by the red lines are 6 pounds each.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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So far I hear you guys saying that there are multiple considerations but the bottom line is to try it and adjust as you go until you get it to fly properly.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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For you experienced guys...is there some general formula to use to determine the amount of weight needed for a flag to hang properly?



I'm not experienced, but here's another goofy idea anway: Would dialing it in on the ground help at all? What I am thinking of is to find a suitable location on the ground, and wait for a day with winds about equal to your canopy speed. Go out and fly the flag, but hang it just from the top corner like you would on the jump. Adjust weights and see what happens.

Finding a "suitable location" might be tricky. For a small flag, a regular flagpole would work. For a huge flag, it might be hard to fly it from a pole without it ending up on the ground a lot; then it gets dirty and sometimes makes people mad. Maybe you could hang it under a bridge if there is a tall enough one in your area. For small to medium flags, you might be able to rig a "flagpole" out of wood in the bed of a pickup truck, and have one person drive the truck while the other person watches the flag.

I realize the weight would probably have to get fine-tuned on test jumps. I am just thinking of a way to get the weight in the right ballpark so it doesn't take as many jumps.

Eule
PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

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Probably not worth the trouble, the dynamic forces affecting the flag under canopy would be difficult at best to duplicate on the ground.

Also as a word of caution~
It's not a good idea to merely add weight to a standard store bought flag without making some modifications.

Suitable reinforcement needs to be added to the leading edge. They are not designed to have a simple line attached to the top, and the flag material be utilized as a load bearing system for a weight attached below.

It's much safer to design a structurally sound lanyard / weight system, and essentially
attach the flag securely to 'it'.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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...Also as a word of caution~
It's not a good idea to merely add weight to a standard store bought flag without making some modifications.

Suitable reinforcement needs to be added to the leading edge. They are not designed to have a simple line attached to the top, and the flag material be utilized as a load bearing system for a weight attached below.

It's much safer to design a structurally sound lanyard / weight system, and essentially
attach the flag securely to 'it'.



Oooooo...good stuff.
Since we were using a flag made for the hanging weight, it wasn't discussed about jumping store-bought or non-reinforced flags.

I did look at buying one this week, though...glad I didn't buy it before I got this piece of info.

Thanks.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I did look at buying one this week, though...glad I didn't buy it before I got this piece of info.



***

It's pretty simple to configure a safe system that will work.

The easiest is to just take some webbing about 8 inches longer than the leading edge of the flag, put grommets in the webbing top and bottom, sew the flag to the webbing with 4 inches of the webbing exposed on top & bottom. Attach the lanyard to the top and the weight to the bottom.

An even better system is to sew some tubular nylon with #12 bird shot onto the webbing in a couple of places as shown in Sparky's pic.

It's easier to pack and deploy the flag, takes considerably less weight to achieve the effect desired, and is safer to those on the ground.


Another couple of things you may want to be aware of~

If you should start to get into flying 'larger' flags and banners...
how you 'pack' them becomes more and more critical.

Like a canopy, there are methods you might want to utilize that actually somewhat 'blow' the flag open, reducing tangles and knots, as well as reducing shock and wear on the system.

Attachment to the harness:
As the flag sizes and weights increase, think about how and where you are hanging it.

Standard sport harness and container systems were not designed to have "D" rings or attachment points just added to them to support a load incurred during opening shock.

It can and WILL put wear on the system you may not notice...
an extremely experienced demo jumper turned a little pale when I showed him on his sport rig that the Box-"X" stitching on the main lift web was showing signs of being pulled apart because of the way he was hanging a 1000' foot 50 pound flag on his harness.

It's not 'Rocket Surgery' but you really need to think through ALL the possibilities when doing this kind of stuff!;)



But that's just my opnion....I could be wrong!:)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I wanted to post this one more for the picture than informational value. It’s over an air show at Wichita Kansas McConnell Air Force Base and the Kansas Aviation Museum.

The flag is 400 sf, it’s attached to a specifically designed harness that’s worn under the rig harness. Designed into a deployment bag, with cut away system and I think 30 or 40 lbs weight (I’ve not personally jumped the rig, and am not absolutely sure about the weight.

Now, how many aircraft can you identify? (Sorry, guess that would be a thread hijack. Don’t respond, just do it for yourself)

Martin

Edit to upload the picture
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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