Catching freebags and mains (was: ASC fatality)

[marks 0]

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I'd rather lose the main and keep the friend.

me too.

but you have to understand nate to understand what im saying. stupidity did not kill him. his kindness and careing for other peaple did.

i guess you could say that his kindness and careing, led him to do somthing stupid to help somone else.

[crwmike 0]

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I mean no disrespect for Nathan but he made a STUPID choice and died because of it and now his family and friends have to pay the price.

This is the exact same thing ANY of my whuffo friends would say about me if I went in skydiving. The reason skydivers criticize whuffos so much, is because they call us stupid, and say we have a death-wish, just because we willingly, knowingly accept a higher risk level than they would be willing to. I'm pretty sure every skydiver has felt anger at a whuffo for calling him insane. It follows that any skydiver who calls someone else who takes greater risks than him (a BASE jumper, a swooper, a freebag chaser) stupid, is a hypocrite.

I may be a baby in the skydiving world, but this discussion has become more about politics (freedom and personal choice) than skydiving. Regardless of how dangerous chasing gear is, there is nothing wrong for Bill listing the possible dangers, how to avoid them, and advising against it. We live in the land of the free, people - you would not appreciate it if anyone took away your ability to choose to skydive or take any other risks.

I suspect CRWDogs are the most experienced skydivers in the world in chasing/catching cutaway stuff. Not only are we in close proximity to the jetisoned material, well ...we probably had something to do with it happening With freebags, it can be done in a manner that is acceptable to most of the Dogs. He was catching mains. There might be some CRWDogs out there that think this is OK, but I'm unaware of any. Catching a cutaway main is way, way over any rational risk assessment.

Nathan fucked up. Catching mains is a stunningly stupid thing to do. I'm not dissing the man ...he was my brother.

If I do something stupid and go in, I would view it as disrespectful if skydivers didn't say, "Man! CRWMike really fucked up!" If it was spectacularly stupid, I hope there are would be full-bodied laughs and harsh jokes ...and I hope there could be something learned from my stupitidy from open, honest discussion. But then I'm old school, so what I feel about it is most likely 'out of date' with many of you.

BSBD,

Michael

[Ron 7]

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but you have to understand nate to understand what im saying. stupidity did not kill him. his kindness and careing for other peaple did.

i guess you could say that his kindness and careing, led him to do somthing stupid to help somone else.

I am sure that is it...I am sure he was not trying to look like a hero...He was trying to help, and he made a bad choice.

I only hope that he is the last person to make that bad choice. If a guy with his skill can make that mistake, anyone can.

With your help we can try to make his death the last to happen due to this.

Its a tragic and unneeded death.

Lets make it CLEAR that we would rather have our buddies alive and safe than have them risk their life to chase a piece of equipment.

Lets make it clear that we think chasing gear is foolish and NOT cool. And that you can accomplish the same thing by noting where it landed and you don't have to risk your life.

It is a nice gesture to follow or even catch cutaway gear...but I don't want anyone to try and catch my gear...I'd rather lose it than someone get hurt. I can buy new gear.

Spot it and try to follow it if you can...Don't risk your life.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riddler 0]

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This sounds exactly like a "how to".

That's not what I got from it. The message I got was "don't try to catch a main at all, and if you have a lot of experience and knowledge of CReW and a lot of jumps, it is possible, with some risk, to catch the freebag."

This is an important distinction. People see video of others catching mains and probably want to try it themselves. Bill just said don't do it, and if even if you go for the freebag, you can get hurt.

As much as I'd like to be that good of a pilot, I probably never will be. I used to follow mains down because they're more expensive. I think I'll just follow the freebag down from now on - those seem to get lost more often, and they're usually not that far from the main.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[mjosparky 3]

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The reason skydivers criticize whuffos so much, is because they call us stupid,

No one called anyone "stupid". The decision to catch the main was "stupid", not the person making the decision. Changing how something is said can change completely what was said.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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People see video of others catching mains and probably want to try it themselves. Bill just said don't do it, and if even if you go for the freebag, you can get hurt.

I wonder if Hooknswoop (if he ever gets back into skydiving) would try to catch a main again? In case you haven't seen it or weren't aware of it, he caught Jim's Crossfire2 canopy between his legs. Peter was jumping it and chopped it after a violent opening on the sunset cross-country load during the Eloy Holiday boogie and the video can be seen either on my Bellas II preview video or on Duece's Holiday boogie video. And ironically this is the very same canopy which I now own and love to fly (I bought it off of Jim a few months ago). I also wonder what DaGimp is thinking right now as well as he attempted to catch Jim's main on several passes before Hooknswoop took over the task.

You've got to assume that Nate Gilbert was a better canopy pilot than most of us, and if he can die trying to catch the main, then the rest of us are at an even higher risk.

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I used to follow mains down because they're more expensive. I think I'll just follow the freebag down from now on - those seem to get lost more often, and they're usually not that far from the main.

As long as I'm not at risk of landing in a sketchy area with trees, buildings and powerlines (not really the case where we jump in most cases right?), for sure I will be following both my main and my freebag down (based on my cutaway experience last December, the two won't be that far away from each other) and I will try to fly close to the gear non-contact CReW style. But after what happened to Nate, you can rest assured it will be non-contact with the gear.

It sucks that Nate lost his life, but this is for sure a lesson that many of us can learn from.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Mixoligist 0]

Do DZOs allow this at other DZs???(catching mains, free bags)

I was taught from the start to NEVER attempt it.

It is well known you will be grounded if you attempt it

Are the rules clear at other DZs or is this type of thing common to see?

..................................
Better you than me
..................................

[riddler 0]

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for sure I will be following both my main and my freebag down

I think it makes more sense under a reserve to land without worrying about your own main and reserve. It's hard enough landing an unfamiliar canopy without trying to keep one eyeball somewhere else. If you have good friends, they might chase your stuff under their normal canopies

But I've know people to swoop their reserve too, so I guess it depends on how much risk you are willing to take

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I think it makes more sense under a reserve to land without worrying about your own main and reserve. It's hard enough landing an unfamiliar canopy without trying to keep one eyeball somewhere else.

This is precisely why it is a good idea to try to take advantage of flying one of those demo reserve canopies when they come to the DZs. I can't say that I'm an expert with a grand total of 5 jumps on the demo PD143s that I've made. But I have made 5 jumps on the very same reserve canopies which are in both of my rigs. So I do have an idea of how to fly them and thus am not as worried about landing out on them (assuming once again that I'm not above a sketchy area such as the area which surrounds Sebastian or the town of Rantoul and/or Wildwood - other areas which I have jumped).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[hookitt 0]

If I have a cutaway, I'll follow my stuff. I can land anywhere though. Here's why I will always follow my canopy.

The one and only time I didn't follow my stuff down, No body went after it. I landed right in front of the hangar and asked who went after it for me? The response...

"It landed way the fuck over there"

I urge most people to land at the dz so I followed my own advice and not one person went after it.

So, that said.. if you happen to see a main floating to the ground with out someone under it, get in a car and go after it. If someone doesn't go after it, and the person has another malfunction, even if he's not qualified to chase it, he will.

That is all.

[tattoojeff 0]

man, thats an exelent point you brought up. i found myself in that situation last week. a person on my skydive chopped right in front of me. awsome visual. anyway, the main was going opposite directions as the free bag. there was a feeding frenzy around the main so i followed the free bag for a while until it was headed twords the worst off landing area around my dz. at 1000 feet i made the decision to abort and not land with the gear but tried to memorize where it was headed how fast ext... strangley enough in 800 jumps ive never landed off. it just didnt feel safe, the terrain is uneven jagged rocky and lots of baby pine trees.
the jumper never found his freebag and i felt bad for him as well as a little guilty. even though i feel i made the right decision for me. i apologized later that day and explained my reasons. he wasnt to stoked but he's not mad at me.
what would you have done?

[mjosparky 3]

You did the right thing, you made a decision to land safe.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Ron 7]

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there was a feeding frenzy around the main so i followed the free bag for a while until it was headed twords the worst off landing area around my dz. at 1000 feet i made the decision to abort and not land with the gear but tried to memorize where it was headed how fast ext... strangley enough in 800 jumps ive never landed off. it just didnt feel safe, the terrain is uneven jagged rocky and lots of baby pine trees.
the jumper never found his freebag and i felt bad for him as well as a little guilty. even though i feel i made the right decision for me. i apologized later that day and explained my reasons. he wasnt to stoked but he's not mad at me.
what would you have done?

Same damn thing...I would rather lose ALL of my gear than have you get hurt/killed trying to catch/follow it.

I can buy new gear.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[dgskydive 0]

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However, I have also come to realize that telling one how to make a safe swoop can sometimes work better than the "Swooping - DON'T DO IT! It'll kill you!" approach.

Tell that to Allen

Dom

[hookitt 0]

Nice work. Lots of folks follow their equipment too low.

Where my canopy was drifting off to, was basicaly flat with almost no obstacles. There was a road all the way up to a fence and it was beyond the fence a ways.

There was just enough of a depression where the canopy landed, that it was out of view. My freebag landed in tall weeds but since I made it out of neon green, it was noticeable.

I retrieved the canopy and all was well, but it did lay out overnight. Our area is known for high winds so that was a concern of mine.

In that instance, landing near the canopy would have been just fine for someone qualified to do so.

So again, if you see a cutaway, some one go after it so the person under the reserve doesn't.

That is all ... again

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[billvon 2,392]

>Tell that to Allen

I have told exactly that to perhaps half a dozen people over the years. One will never walk again, two had serious injuries that scared them, two had minor injuries. I don't know what's become of the rest of them, but I do know that most of them didn't listen - which is why I came up with the "seven things you should be able to do before downsizing" list.

[The111 0]

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The reason skydivers criticize whuffos so much, is because they call us stupid,

No one called anyone "stupid". The decision to catch the main was "stupid", not the person making the decision. Changing how something is said can change completely what was said.
Sparky

Whuffos call us stupid.
Whuffos call our decisions stupid.
I understand the difference, but it is not relevant to the point I made.

However, if you must, replace "call us stupid" with "call our decisions stupid" in my original post. The point is that I don't think any skydiver has the right to call another's actions stupid, since we're all doing something that is stupid in someone else's (a whuffo's) eyes.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[chuckbrown 0]

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The point is that I don't think any skydiver has the right to call another's actions stupid, since we're all doing something that is stupid in someone else's (a whuffo's) eyes.

I don't think that's quite true. A skydiver doing something outside of what is considered by other skydivers as "safe" under the circumstances can be called "stupid." Say, for example, a jumper with 100 jumps downsizing from a 1:1 square to a 2:1 elliptical would probably be considered "stupid."

I agree though, I don't see the distinction between a stupid person and a stupid decision other than a stupid decision means you're just stupid once (as opposed to being chronically stupid). Nothing implied against Nate Gilbert. IMHO, he just ran into bad luck.

[mjosparky 3]

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However, if you must, replace "call us stupid" with "call our decisions stupid" in my original post. The point is that I don't think any skydiver has the right to call another's actions stupid, since we're all doing something that is stupid in someone else's (a whuffo's) eyes

I don't think you see the difference. Smart people can make "stupid" decisions, but stupid people can only make "stupid" decisions. A smart person can make a mistake and learn from it, a stupid person keeps making the same mistake over and over.
Most skydivers are smart people that occasionally make a mistake and if they live learn from it. jmo
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[eames 0]

First of all, this sucks. I just heard. I can't believe it....

Personally, and I think everyone agrees here, I would never try to catch a main. But I wouldn't try to catch a freebag and PC either. I've discovered that a PC can, in fact, cause a considerable amont of discomfort. And there's no doubt that it could cause a malfunction, too. But anyway....

I have a simple suggestion. I had a cutaway last week and my main got lost in the most hideous swamp/jungle I've ever had the displeasure of hacking through.... There was only one reason I was able to find it: As soon as I landed under my reserve, I took my video camera off my head, zoomed in on the canopy, and recorded exactly where it landed.

If you do this, and you have a GPS, you can set a way-point where you landed, set another one in the line of site of where the canopy landed, determine a heading, grab a compass and go for it. I suppose you could do this without video, but it's easy to forget exactly where it went down, especially when everybody and three of his best friends are telling you that it landed in a thousand different places.

I guess this would be a bit more difficult for those flying bigger reserves, because the main might land first, but it worked well for me. And if you're doing video and you see someone else's gear going down, why not just video it?

-Jason

[burbleflyer 0]

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>Its a bad and potentially fatal idea to catch a main or freebag.

Agreed.

>I see only one reason...hey guys, look at me, I'm cool.

Same reason people hook turn. Which is also pointless, but people think it's fun and it looks cool. I have learned that if I tell people "Don't hook turn, you idiot! You don't know what you're doing, it's stupid, and it will get you killed" they do it anyway. If I explain to them the risks they are taking, and how some things are dumber than others (like trying to pull out of the corner with rear risers) they get a bit more out of it.

>This isnt like hook turns where it is advisable to teach someone how.

No one needs to do a hook turn to land safely. It's an additional risk, one that can easily kill you. It has killed dozens of people over the years. But I think that if a jumper wants to do it, fine - it's their life and their limbs. The only real tragedy are the people who do hook turns (or, for that matter, who try to catch freebags) without understanding the risks involved. Which is why a thread like this is useful - people considering catching a freebag (or even worse, a main) can learn about the dangers involved, so they don't think it's just a fun, risk-free thing to do.

Your comparison is... well dumb. Hook turns have a purpose and there is a way to learn to learn to do them safely.
There is no way to learn to catch a cutaway main safely and there is no real purpose.

[billvon 2,392]

Marks, burbleflyer, please take your ongoing argument to PM's and do not use this forum to go after each other. Your one warning.

[billvon 2,392]

>Your comparison is... well dumb. Hook turns have a purpose and
> there is a way to learn to learn to do them safely.
>There is no way to learn to catch a cutaway main safely and there is
> no real purpose.

As I've stated before, I don't recommend trying to catch mains, and I have never tried it, because I think it's suicidal. But my point was not to claim there was a purpose to it, it was to claim that there is no real benefit to do hook turns, other than they're cool. We're skydivers. We do things that are cool. That's why we skydive in the first place (other than those of us who jump in the military.) The trick is to decide whether the benefit is worth the risk. In the case of catching something in the air, the benefit is pretty marginal and the risks are quite high. Consider the risks and choose your actions accordingly.

[cruzlite 0]

I saw a guy catch a main, & bring it back to the dz
(Many years ago)

I remember thinking...This is very cool...

Some time later, the oportunity presented itself, and I went after a friend's main...
When I finnally got this tumbling, flailing, mass of garbage in front of me, (Not easy considering it
did not have a constant fall rate),...I decided not to
attempt to catch it, & followed it down...
This decision was based more on the fear of what this thing could do to ME rather than my canopy.

I remember thinking...anybody who could pull this
off without killing themselves was damn good...
kind of like crew dogs & base jumpers...BUT...

In the words of Nan Woods...
"I'm having too much fun skydiving to kill myself
like that."

D

[firstime 0]

I saw guy catch a freebag when I started my aff and
I thought it was "pretty cool" but now looking back
It's "what an asshole"