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billvon

Catching freebags and mains (was: ASC fatality)

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Thats why I included the SLIM part...Maybe I should have just said "Fucking stupid" instead of slim.

I like what you're saying, 'cause someone is going to hear "just catch it by the pilot chute" Maybe they will have read your comments and know the chances of success are SLIM! Give us the whole truth, not just the PC version.

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> but what are the problems with catching a reserve freebag while under canopy?

1. You can get distracted from the task at hand (landing safely, usually outside the main landing area)

2. The PC can hit your lines, ride up, and mal your canopy. Outer A-lines are the worst place for it to hit, and they're sort of in front.

3. The PC can hit your lines, ride up, and create just enough drag that the canopy no longer planes out well or behaves well when you flare. You may not find this out until you are too low to do anything about it.

4. The PC can hit you in the face or the groin; they are heavy and can hurt.

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1. You can get distracted from the task at hand (landing safely, usually outside the main landing area)



Definitely.

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2. The PC can hit your lines, ride up, and mal your canopy. Outer A-lines are the worst place for it to hit, and they're sort of in front.

3. The PC can hit your lines, ride up, and create just enough drag that the canopy no longer planes out well or behaves well when you flare. You may not find this out until you are too low to do anything about it.



If you're under a large-ish canopy, would these two still be as much of a problem? Clearly this would suck under a VX or something, but a 170? Also, the mals you are talking about, would that be more like a PC over the nose, or a lineover? I can see the lineover-like malfunction happening if the freebag bridle wraps around an outer cell tightly, but it sounds unlikely.

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4. The PC can hit you in the face or the groin; they are heavy and can hurt.



That would definitely suck.

Edited to add: Using a little more imagination, yeah, I can see lots of problems. It could wrap itself around line groups, get into your burble and start yanking around on random lines, maybe even cause random partial collapses. While doing this, it could beat you on the head really hard and knock you out. It could wrap itself around your risers/brakelines. Reserve bridles are long, it could even wrap itself around your controls and your reserve flaps, causing a double mal.

I'm convinced, it's a stupid thing to try.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

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Right off, I am an A-licensed skydiver with 94 jumps. That's where I speak from.

I am wondering if there could be more to discuss about this above-mentioned strategy. If the point of chasing a mid-air cutaway main is to prevent it from being lost after landing out, and we agree that it is just too dangerous a gambit, I think we should next look at the risks of following it.

It seems to me that any time we do not land in a familiar field, there is risk/danger. If a cutaway main is going to land out, and we decide to follow it so that it gets returned safely, we expose ourselves to ALL of the risks that present themselves any time we land out -- power lines, trees, water, vehicles, buildings, structures, rocky landing fields.

I love the idea of helping to prevent a lost main for someone, but this stuff crossed my mind. Even if the danger of mid-air entanglement is avoided, there is a new Pandora's Box opened when we deliberately decide to extemporaneously land out to reconnoiter the cutaway main.

I hope my post has a positive effect on this discussion, and as I mentioned in a different thread, my condolences to Nate's family and friends.

Blue skies,
-
---Jeffrey



This is in reply to a post in the incidents forum...
Living here at Z-Hills Fl, i have spent many hours out in the woods, swamps, crap, looking for mains, free bags, JUMPERS ....
We have found all of them that i have been involved with...
If you are in the air and see a cutaway just watch it, even it you know you cant land with it, you can tell someone @ where it went down. Dont try to grab it, you can always grab some friends and go play comando in the woods till ya find it.....:)
HAVE FUN...
...JUST DONT DIE

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I gotta agree with Scotty on this one. Chasing a main or a freebag is not a good idea. Dont do it.
Why do people have to be told this? Think for a minute...whats the WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN? Then if you can deal with that, go ahead.
If it can happen, it will eventually.



I know someone that broke his femur because of a freebag. Last I saw him, he was still walking with a limp. I've also seen video of the freebag end up in the lines of someone's canopy.

Follow it down if you want, but never catch anything. It's not cool, it's stupid and it WILL eventually kill you. As we have seen, skill level doesn't matter in this. Canopy size and wingloading don't matter either. I don't even know why anyone thinks its a good idea - if you have ever followed a chopped canopy you would realize how crazy it flies. We go out of our way to avoid wraps on landing, why would you intentionally fly into one?
_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

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I once caught a cut-away main, a year ago after an entanglement between two other jumpers on a CRW jump. Needless to say, I swore to myself I wouldn't do it again, even though it was a success.

I have over 1100 jumps, do both CRW and Demo jumps and just recently qualified for my PRO rating, and jump a Triathlon 120. The canopy I caught was a 210, I believe. The cutaway occurred at between 9000 and 10,000 feet. It followed one of the nastiest entanglements I've ever seen in person or on video, the guy even lost part of a finger from a line wrapping around it when he cutaway. Everybody except me decided to fly back to the airport, a mile away. I went after the canopy. I snagged it on my feet somewhere around 8000 feet. It put me in a dive like you wouldn't believe, and it was violent. I managed to reel the canopy in and stash it between my legs. It was a ball of shit and lines were everywhere, but it took me long enough that by the time I got it under control I was down to 4500 feet, and there was nothing to land on safely except a high school football stadium. There was a mile of trees between that and the airport. I consider myself VERY lucky that I pulled it off and landed safely. It scared the bejesus out of me, and I will not do it again. However, at the time, I knew if it had been somewhere lower than 5000 feet when the cut-away occurred, I wouldn't even bother catching it. The fact that it was at 9000 feet made it tempting and I thought I'd have enough time, but I was surprised at how long it took me.

Basically, just don't take the risk.
Blue Skies
Billy Vance
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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Very tempting when there are so many trees that are so high. Swamps and such could also tempt friends to do you a favor at their risk.

I was very lucky that my only chop in 8 years at Kapowsin resulted in the stuff landing in a clearing just east of the runway.

The others were in the Arizona desert. No risk of losing it.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Living here at Z-Hills Fl, i have spent many hours out in the woods, swamps, crap, looking for mains, free bags, JUMPERS ....



Notice i say jumpers here.....
This dude went after his crap that landed in A VERY THICK WOODED AREA......
We had no word from the jumper (no cell on him), I found the main first on the edge of a SMALL clearning....
A bunch of us were out there calling for him but no response...:S
I walked NE of everyone else, so we could cover more ground. I was walking along an old fence line with nothing but 30 to 50 foot trees all around, then i see a ball of white crap about 50 feet from me. My stomach sunk, I ran over to the mess (it was his rig and reserve) well it turned out that he had dropped his shit to find a house to call the dz.....
What i am trying to say is that sometimes you should use your eyes and not your body to follow your gear down.... (he had no idea where his main was...)
he landed in a VERY dangerous area, it was a unnessary risk to put himself into.
HAVE FUN...
...JUST DONT DIE

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This is probably the most retarded thread I have seen here. Its a bad and potentially fatal idea to catch a main or freebag. Anyone trying to teach this or explain it doesnt get it.
My single worst dream in this sport is a horseshoe malfunction and catching cutaway gear is inducing one.
Look at it this way, someone just got rid of it because it might kill or hurt them and now you want to go get it and make it your problem.?
Name one good reason why?
I see only one reason...hey guys, look at me, I'm cool.
Dumb dumb dumb dumb.
Trying to teach this or explain why it might be done is retarded. How many cutaway mains are lost forever and who the f### cares?
I have no sympathy for anyone who dies by their own stupidity. Do I feel sad? Yes. Does it hurt? Yes.
I expect no sympathy either if I do something stupid and die because of it especially if I do something that dumb.
Catching cutaway gear is Russian roulette. If you die playing it, so be it. Anyone that does it is stupid and asking for it, plain and simple.
This isnt like hook turns where it is advisable to teach someone how. Its like a low pull contest that is just a dangerous thing with no real benifit except...look at me, I'm cool.
I mean no disrespect for Nathan but he made a STUPID choice and died because of it and now his family and friends have to pay the price.
Anyone who tries to sugar coat this is doing a disservice to other skydivers.
This was a stupid thing to do and it cost him his life doing it.
My prayers to his family.

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>Its a bad and potentially fatal idea to catch a main or freebag.

Agreed.

>I see only one reason...hey guys, look at me, I'm cool.

Same reason people hook turn. Which is also pointless, but people think it's fun and it looks cool. I have learned that if I tell people "Don't hook turn, you idiot! You don't know what you're doing, it's stupid, and it will get you killed" they do it anyway. If I explain to them the risks they are taking, and how some things are dumber than others (like trying to pull out of the corner with rear risers) they get a bit more out of it.

>This isnt like hook turns where it is advisable to teach someone how.

No one needs to do a hook turn to land safely. It's an additional risk, one that can easily kill you. It has killed dozens of people over the years. But I think that if a jumper wants to do it, fine - it's their life and their limbs. The only real tragedy are the people who do hook turns (or, for that matter, who try to catch freebags) without understanding the risks involved. Which is why a thread like this is useful - people considering catching a freebag (or even worse, a main) can learn about the dangers involved, so they don't think it's just a fun, risk-free thing to do.

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No one needs to do a hook turn to land safely. It's an additional risk, one that can easily kill you. It has killed dozens of people over the years.




some of us do those turns because that is what we like about the sport.

nate would retrive feebags and mains because of the same reason. i wouldnt try it and nate new that because we had a desscussion about it. but he was one to try and help peaple in any wich way he could..

i say,,,, more power to him... more love and respect to him... he died doing what he wanted and loved.

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You probably agree with Bill because of your experience at flying close and docking under canopy as a CREWdog. So to you, from your perspective, snagging a freebag seems a no-brainer. But remember that most skydivers aren't proficient at CRW, so keeping their skills and experience in mind, I would have to agree that the smart move is to follow anyone's anything to the ground and not try to actually snag it mid-air. So if you want to catch a freebag, that's your call, but I'm not going to do it (not again, anyway).



I thought his comments were well thought out and precautionary. I see it as kind of like hook turns. You can just say "don't do them ...ever" or you can offer good advice on how to (and not to) do them. It's an activity with potential for trouble, no doubt, but if you have the touch, nerve and experience, Bill's advice was good.

It's all fun and games till someone puts an eye out B|

BSBD,

Michael

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> but what are the problems with catching a reserve freebag while under canopy?

1. You can get distracted from the task at hand (landing safely, usually outside the main landing area)

2. The PC can hit your lines, ride up, and mal your canopy. Outer A-lines are the worst place for it to hit, and they're sort of in front.

3. The PC can hit your lines, ride up, and create just enough drag that the canopy no longer planes out well or behaves well when you flare. You may not find this out until you are too low to do anything about it.

4. The PC can hit you in the face or the groin; they are heavy and can hurt.



With CRWDogs, the biggest safety problem I have seen (repeatedly) is that it's kind of like blood in the water thing. A freebag floating in the air initiates a CRWDog feeding frenzy. If I see more than two experienced CRWDogs (or even one if lesser experienced), I'll seek a meal elsewhere (perhaps one of the original chasers ;)

BSBD,

Michael

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i understand you intent bill.
its kind of like handing out condoms to highschool students in school. nobody really wants young people screwing but if some are gonna do it at least they'll be safe.
i dont feel you meant to be condoning or encouraging snaging gear but you did state that you do it. that left you open for critizism.

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Bill's advice was on target.


<>
Thats fine...I hope you sleep well at night when the next person dies listining to such a dumb-ass suggestion!



What would you do? Just say no? Don't mean to bring up a whole other issue but it's like firearms. You can just say, don't ever touch guns, ever ...or you could offer advice about firearms and how to prevent accidently shooting someone (or shooting at tax collectors ...and missing).

I gots lots of ghosts that keep me from sleeping well at night, darlin. There's always room for one more.

Peace,

Michael

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What would you do? Just say no? Don't mean to bring up a whole other issue but it's like firearms. You can just say, don't ever touch guns, ever ...or you could offer advice about firearms and how to prevent accidently shooting someone (or shooting at tax collectors ...and missing).



There are differences!!!! There are swooping courses…..there are firearm courses. There is NO gear catching courses. A 3 paragraph online gear catching seminar coming from a high jump number / moderator / insturctor just didnt settle well with me...period! I KNOW Bill had NO bad intent posting what he did. The issue I see here is that we ALL must remember our audience while posting here ““look at some of the jump numbers on the poster profiles”””. They (these kids) read this stuff and run with it...BAD>>>BAD>>>BAD
Nate was one of my favorite people to watch under canopy “as well as in the air”…He was damn good! In this case Nate took an “informed risk”….note INFORMED! He knew well and good it was dangerous. Nate himself only weeks ago yelled (well ok not yelled….he never yelled at anyone)…..scolded another jumper for orbiting around a cut-away main “geez”. Nate DID NOT ENCOURAGE THIS PRACTICE TO ANYONE. My point here is even one of our best Canopy Pilots did not survive doing this. Its just not even worth discussing “good way…bad way! Someone earlier nailed it talking about what a wonderful job our 3-ring release system does for us why ruin it!
Nuff Said From Me!
<>
Tami
natenkatieweloveu

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What would you do? Just say no? Don't mean to bring up a whole other issue but it's like firearms. You can just say, don't ever touch guns, ever ...or you could offer advice about firearms and how to prevent accidently shooting someone (or shooting at tax collectors ...and missing).



There are differences!!!! There are swooping courses…..there are firearm courses. There is NO gear catching courses. A 3 paragraph online gear catching seminar coming from a high jump number / moderator / insturctor just didnt settle well with me...period! I KNOW Bill had NO bad intent posting what he did. The issue I see here is that we ALL must remember our audience while posting here ““look at some of the jump numbers on the poster profiles”””. They (these kids) read this stuff and run with it...BAD>>>BAD>>>BAD
Nate was one of my favorite people to watch under canopy “as well as in the air”…He was damn good! In this case Nate took an “informed risk”….note INFORMED! He knew well and good it was dangerous. Nate himself only weeks ago yelled (well ok not yelled….he never yelled at anyone)…..scolded another jumper for orbiting around a cut-away main “geez”. Nate DID NOT ENCOURAGE THIS PRACTICE TO ANYONE. My point here is even one of our best Canopy Pilots did not survive doing this. Its just not even worth discussing “good way…bad way! Someone earlier nailed it talking about what a wonderful job our 3-ring release system does for us why ruin it!
Nuff Said From Me!
<>
Tami
natenkatieweloveu



I disagree, Nate was uninformed. Catching mains will bite you sooner or later. I don't recommend it.

Michael

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I mean no disrespect for Nathan but he made a STUPID choice and died because of it and now his family and friends have to pay the price.



This is the exact same thing ANY of my whuffo friends would say about me if I went in skydiving. The reason skydivers criticize whuffos so much, is because they call us stupid, and say we have a death-wish, just because we willingly, knowingly accept a higher risk level than they would be willing to. I'm pretty sure every skydiver has felt anger at a whuffo for calling him insane. It follows that any skydiver who calls someone else who takes greater risks than him (a BASE jumper, a swooper, a freebag chaser) stupid, is a hypocrite.

I may be a baby in the skydiving world, but this discussion has become more about politics (freedom and personal choice) than skydiving. Regardless of how dangerous chasing gear is, there is nothing wrong for Bill listing the possible dangers, how to avoid them, and advising against it. We live in the land of the free, people - you would not appreciate it if anyone took away your ability to choose to skydive or take any other risks.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Thats why I included the SLIM part...Maybe I should have just said "Fucking stupid" instead of slim.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like what you're saying, 'cause someone is going to hear "just catch it by the pilot chute" Maybe they will have read your comments and know the chances of success are SLIM! Give us the whole truth, not just the PC version.



Yeah I was TRYING to avoid getting slammed or giving the impression of me slamming Nate.

such as this one:

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your a fucking jack ass.
YOU are a disservice to this sport.
the effect of nathan's death has had such an immense impact to everyone who he had crossed paths with and it shows here. Even in some online forums, it shows through.
and you want to come on here and start bitching about how it was a stupid thing to do and shame on him and how you have no sympathy??? no one has praised nate for doing what he did, not once, we accepted it and decided to focus on the positive--just like he wouldve. so why would you feel it necessary to even type such comments? why? because you are a fucking jack ass. 21 years in this sport and you havent learned a thing about family. Wheres your name in your profile? wheres your home dz? its not in there, because your ashamed and embaressed.
So go ahead old timer---- you know it all right?


"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Please don't take this the wrong way, but what are the problems with catching a reserve freebag while under canopy? People have repeatedly said that it can kill, and I do not doubt your experience but I am wondering how, since I cannot see any reasons beyond what was stated. I can see a problem if you "catch" it with your canopy fabric, and I can see the possibility of colliding with someone. Any other dangers?



Bill answered this already...If you have anymore questons about this PM and I will try to help.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Like it or not what Nate did was stupid and it killed him.



alot of peaple say jumping out of planes is stupid. yet you still do it.

i had a conversation once with nate about catching gear. if you dont think he knew the risk's of doing it your wrong.

just like im 100% posative you understand the risk's of jumping out of planes.

it all depends on where your opinion of stupid begins.

so what you say is an opinion and i will not take offense to it. nate was not stupid. he was a very caring and helpfull person. that is what killed him, not stupidity.

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Bill,

I must disagree with you here my friend. This sounds exactly like a "how to".

During an ICC last month I'm student on the Vengeance 107 (late Sunday, last jump, dumb choice) and it functions. Clean cut-a-way and I locate the freebag and follow it down. Main lands on the airport. All go home.

Why be in such a hurry to snag the freebag or the main? It's simply not worth the risk.

Blues,

J.E.
James 4:8

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alot of peaple say jumping out of planes is stupid. yet you still do it.



Yep, but just cause I do it does not make it smart. You can understand the risks and still do something that is stupid.

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i had a conversation once with nate about catching gear. if you dont think he knew the risk's of doing it your wrong.



Im sure he did have an idea baout the risks...But ask yourself this...Did he think it would kill him? Of course not. But knowing the risks and accepting them, does not make it not stupid.

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so what you say is an opinion and i will not take offense to it. nate was not stupid. he was a very caring and helpfull person. that is what killed him, not stupidity.



I never said he was stupid...I said he did a stupid thing.

Smart nice people do stupid things at times....In this case a smart, well liked, nice and very skilled jumper did something stupid and it killed him.

It does not make him stupid, it does not detract from how nice he was of how skilled he was...It does say that he made a bad choice to do a high risk life threatening trick...and he killed himself doing it.

And for what? To make it so they didn't have to go looking for the main?

Is a main worth a persons life? If it was your main, would you rather have lost it, or would you rather find it wrapped around a guys body?

I'd rather lose the main and keep the friend.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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