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AlphaCrow

Need advice for DZ issue

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I've been jumping (very slowly, 2-3 a month) at a DZ for almost 4 years now, I have about 100 jumps total. I'm very safe and cautious, I jump alone and land smoothly in the practice field every time.

There is an instructor that began working there about a year ago. The guy is condenscending, though somewhat polite. The guy always manages to approach me and my small group of friends and start a conflict. Instead of arguing, I just walk away from the guy. I thought I was being fairly mature. I just can't stand his tone and attitude, while I'm low in numbers in skydiving, this is not my first rodeo with danger (professional firefighter, military combat veteran, etc). While I may hold those things inside as to why I don't want someone talking down to me, I also don't want to dishonor them and explain my background.

My girlfriend, who jumps, noticed the guy complaining to the DZ owner that I "don't listen to him". I'm worried the guy is trying to get me in trouble with the DZ. I realize I have a perfectly clean record and am acquaintance friends or at least friendly with everyone else there, going for me. I'm still worried that since I don't go very often and he's there everyday, he might have enough influence to cause problems.

What do you guys/gals think I should do? Confronting the guy is NOT a good idea. I'll skip the macho story, but I'm barely, barely holding it in when dealing with him. Speak with the owner? Write a letter? I have several people that go there that are willing to sign a letter stating the guy is abrasive and condenscending.

For instance, the last incident... I received a new samsung sportscam I was showing off to some buddies there. The guy kept looking over and obviously wanting to say something. Anyway, we jump and have a good time. I have 10 minutes to leave to get my passenger back home in time for work. I'm dropping my rental chute off and he starts asking me how many jumps I have. I'm assuming he wants to lecture me about a camera, but I'm in a hurry and I don't need to hear it from him anyway. I say "couldn't tell you right off".. he asks again and again, I say "I'm in a hurry, not now", smile and jog to the restroom where I change. He's whining to another instructor that I'm rude to him and won't listen. I leave within 5 minutes with my group as planned.
(note: the camera was in my jumpsuit, though I have a mount for it on my helmet, I landed near my girlfriend and filmed her, since it was her second STP solo and the instructors there don't film landings)

Sorry to come on and start with a gripe
Just need some advice from experienced jumpers. They know me at the DZ, I have good terms with everyone. Logically that should weigh in well, but I'm worried anyway. Should I write a letter of complaint and file all the issues he has caused with my me, my girlfriend (touching her arm repeatedly while talking to her despite her pulling away), being rude to my brother (STP student), making my buddy uncomfortable (first time tandem with him), etc? Would the DZ owner tell me to take a hike if I'm causing problems by complaining? Should I just call the DZ owner for a more personal method? Ignore it and hope I don't get a warning or even banned from the DZ if this guy is making up lies or exaggerations?

Advice plz... thanks in advance :)

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My girlfriend, who jumps, noticed the guy complaining to the DZ owner that I "don't listen to him". I'm worried the guy is trying to get me in trouble with the DZ.



Id first say, thats hearsay and instead of going through this back and forth through your girlfriend drama approach him.

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What do you guys/gals think I should do? Confronting the guy is NOT a good idea.



Why not? Is he going to beat you up ? That doesnt make sense.... its always a good idea to confront those that make you uncomfortable, its kinda part of being an adult.


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I'm worried the guy is trying to get me in trouble with the DZ.



So is he always lecturing you guys on safety?


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For instance, the last incident... I received a new samsung sportscam I was showing off to some buddies there. The guy kept looking over and obviously wanting to say something. Anyway, we jump and have a good time. I have 10 minutes to leave to get my passenger back home in time for work. I'm dropping my rental chute off and he starts asking me how many jumps I have. I'm assuming he wants to lecture me about a camera, but I'm in a hurry and I don't need to hear it from him anyway. I say "couldn't tell you right off".. he asks again and again, I say "I'm in a hurry, not now", smile and jog to the restroom where I change. He's whining to another instructor that I'm rude to him and won't listen. I leave within 5 minutes with my group as planned.
(note: the camera was in my jumpsuit, though I have a mount for it on my helmet, I landed near my girlfriend and filmed her, since it was her second STP solo and the instructors there don't film landings)



Personally I think he is in the right on this. He noticed you were sporting a camera and then brought it on a jump. You state you have 100 jumps to us, but refused to tell him.... instead you made 2 excuses about why you couldnt tell him your jump numbers stating time as the reason, yet how hard is it to say 100? You didnt want to tell him because you KNOW you shouldnt be jumping a camera. Hes an instructor, he is partly responsible for peoples safety at that DZ... now I get the feeling you are a 100 jump wonder....Maybe you should give him a chance and listen to him.

The last paragraph, hmmmm well I just think your being a baby, id be curious to hear the instructors side. Touch it up, this sport isnt for people who cant stand on their own and take ownership of their own actions. What have you done to help create this "hostile" enviroment? What needs to be done if what you say is true is to talk to him like the man your supposed to be. If he treats everyone as he has treated you, including wuffos, I assume the management has heard the stuff before then right? Im less experienced in jumping, but I am smart enough to know my weakness in this sport and respect and APPRECIATE the advice from the more experienced jumpers. I have a feeling this is more about you being what they classify as a 100 jump wonder which is what I read when reading this... Skydiving, and firefighter (which I am both, although am not a firefighter anymore) are completley different ball games and to say this is in the same rodeo is silly at best

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while I'm low in numbers in skydiving, this is not my first rodeo with danger (professional firefighter, military combat veteran, etc). While I may hold those things inside as to why I don't want someone talking down to me, I also don't want to dishonor them and explain my background.


Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

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No, never any problems. A normal day for me is to go down there with a small group. We sit on a bench between jumps, laugh, joke and have fun.

This one instructor has to come over, make several comments and make everyone uncomfortable as heck. He touches everyone multiple times while talking.

I think it all boils down to, we're different personality types. I asked him to stop touching me, fairly politely (as in: "don't touch me please"). He gets insulted and basically follows me around making comments. One of my friends touches my shoulder, he'll say "Oh, he can touch you! So what's your problem with me?!".

I really feel like saying "welcome to America, sorry you had to leave mother russia behind".

I'm friends with all other instructors and staff, first name basis and call several of them before heading there for a weather/staffing report (enough tandems for friends, etc) and loads going up. I just don't like this one guy and refuse to talk/touch/deal with him and he's making a war out of it.

Speak with owner? Write a letter to owner? My group of friends (fun jumpers, STP's and tandems) is looking to me to handle it since I've been there long enough. They dislike him as much as me.

I could speak with him, but I can predict it'll turn into a verbal fight.

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why not talk with the instructors that you are friends with and see how they think it should go?

I wouldn't confront him unless the DZO agrees and knows when you are doing that. Always better to have witness if things have the possibility of going south.

I feel like you are headed for a male to male moment though. Until he understands that he is crossing the lines with you.. he'll keep pushing. Some people are just that way.
IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!


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still not bad idea~~

if you were me... I would just say something to his face in front as many people as I could. I don't mind confrontation and people usually know exactly how I feel. When I am happy....I am happy. When I am sad,,,I am sad.

So you have to do what you can live with in the long run~~
IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!


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Hi, Crow.

As a similarly situated jumper - inasmuch as the numbers and time go (and no, I haven't updated my profile in a while...), I'm thinking a few things.

{quote]I could speak with him, but I can predict it'll turn into a verbal fight.
Then don't. It's really not that hard. Just keep walking away when he tries to confront you, hold your temper, and walk. He'll end up looking like the ass in the long run.

As for how you handled the camera thing, you know, I bet a dollar (I'm poor...thus the low jump #) that had it been another instructor, you would have told him "100 jumps, and I only took it to film my g/f on her landings. Never even think of using it in the air at this point in time." I sort of understand why you didn't say that to him - time constraints if he is the sort to try to hold you there and "discuss" it with you. But you could've said all that, and added "pardon me, but I've got to run now. We can pick it up at a later time, if you'd like..." and then turn and walk away. The entire issue is immediately resolved there. If he carries it forward from that point, I'd deal with it then.

Next point. If someone is touching me, and I don't want them to, I tell them. The next time they do it, I tell them louder. The third time they do it, because I am prepared (it's a pattern at this point), I'd grab his hand, and let him know in a loud, clear, eloquent way his touch is not welcome. No foul language, but definitely loud enough so others around will hear.

As to how to deal with it overall? I'd keep walking away. It's one instructor, and while it's a pain in the ass, it's only one instructor. If the DZO calls you over, don't challenge him...handle the issue with dignity. Talk it over with him. Discuss it with him. But at this point, don't bother involving him. If there are safety issues (and I promise, there are, even though we are being as safe as we can be, we've only got a hundred jumps; and while we've been around the sport for a few years, we've only seen a handful of things...I promise; this isn't denegrating you at all, just pointing out the truth...) accept it as a learning situation, even if all you learn is how to communicate with an asshole effectively, it's a learning experience.

If I were in your shoes, that is what I'd do. I'd also realize that there might be something I'm doing, or have done, which caught this guy's attention, and either work to change that particular behavior, or...more likely...just ignore it if it's personality based.

If my group of friends were waiting for me to deal with it, I'd let them know that I was taking the higher road. Politeness, respectful answers to his questions, and no further contact. Walk away when needed, and vent away from the dropzone. If he's ever heard you complaining about him to his friends, he might perceive that you are a threat to his livelihood, and that's why he's all over you. Not saying you did, just that he might perceive it that way.

Above all, however, I'd avoid escalating it. Let him do the dirty work...it's rather unlikely that you'll be asked to not return unless you are doing things which are incredibly unsafe - jumping a camera at 100 jumps; showing up with a small pocket rocket; low turning consistently; cutting off others during landing; et cetera. The DZO wants your money...so let him bring it to you if it ever gets there.

(And yes, I'll advise Spence. What I could advise him on is "never listen to me.";))

Ciels-
Michele


~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

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It is entirely possible, even likely, that no matter what you say, how you say it or how right you may be, that you will be looked upon as the problem. Many DZO's just don't want to be bothered.



I have to agree with this. DZOs generally do not want to get involved in other people's f***ing drama, no matter who's right or wrong. Plus, he works for the DZO, you don't, and it sounds like he probably has way more jumps than you. I agree that the DZO will probably side with him.

Avoidance is the best strategy, but it sounds like you've tried that and it's failed. Maybe you and he have a mutual friend at the DZ who's generally respected. If so, maybe you could get that friend to mediate a little "meeting", just the 3 of you, to try clear the air. Between his personality and yours, I don't hold out huge hopes that it will succeed, but at least you'll go on record as trying to take the high road.

Having said that, sometimes Dodge City just ain't big enough for the both of you.

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Yeah, that's my fear is becoming a problem child after a good several year clean record over male egos.

Well, I guess I'll go down there with only planning on 1 jump for that day and see if the opportunity arises to speak with him.

I wonder if anyone has had any experience with this? What do DZO's usually do? I really don't want to head down the path to getting a bad name or banned there. I also don't want this guy preaching to me about various things.

BTW, I'll give you another example. He seems to have a guilt complex around quiet people. G/f coming in for first solo STP landing. This guy has the radio, is guiding her, but saying goofy things like "the dog ate my cookie, haha"... then "left turn".. "that dog keeps taking my cookies!". I know her and she's very, VERY nervous. I quietly ask the senior instructor, who is her STP instructor, to do the radio. He does. The problem instructor catches on to this and starts talking nervously to me about how he didn't mean anything by it (guess he's worried I'll report his lack of professionalism). I don't say a word, just quietly watch her descend. Then he starts quizzing me on how many jumps I have (yes, he asks like everytime he gets worked up). I tell him to ask me later, please. I'm sure it upset him, though at least I didn't hear from it that time.


Anyway, that's the deal. I really do not want to speak to him. I'm am a VERY quiet person. Is that a big problem in some of your opinions? I don't think it is, but maybe I'm different.

I hope I don't give a bad name to us 100 jump guys :) Trust me, I'm not stopping, just going forward at my own financial pace. I will say, one thing that really, REALLY pisses me off though, is people talking down to me or being insulting because I don't have a lot of jumps. I don't make a whole lot of money and I have an elderly relative that my whole family gives part of our paychecks to keep them in a decent nursing home with medical care. If I make overtime, it's a few extra jumps that month. I really don't need some punk telling me about myself because of a number.

Again, thank you all for the advice (minus the flaming, :P )

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Even accepting that this guy is trying to make trouble, what's the worse that will happen if you just try being civil to him? He might offer some advice ? Ignoring him and walking away is (IMO) an aggressive thing to do. You are happy to publish your jump experience on a public forum, but not prepared to answer his direct question.

Even people you dislike can give good advice.

Having said all of that, I jump at a small friendly DZ and am happy to get any advice/help from anyone.

Blue skies
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

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...Confronting the guy is NOT a good idea. I'll skip the macho story, but I'm barely, barely holding it in when dealing with him...



If your body language is aggressive, you're really not going to help the situation. You need to be able to stay calm and deal with him as a normal human being.

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For instance, the last incident... I received a new samsung sportscam I was showing off to some buddies there. The guy kept looking over and obviously wanting to say something. Anyway, we jump and have a good time. I have 10 minutes to leave to get my passenger back home in time for work. I'm dropping my rental chute off and he starts asking me how many jumps I have. I'm assuming he wants to lecture me about a camera, but I'm in a hurry and I don't need to hear it from him anyway. I say "couldn't tell you right off".. he asks again and again, I say "I'm in a hurry, not now", smile and jog to the restroom where I change. He's whining to another instructor that I'm rude to him and won't listen. I leave within 5 minutes with my group as planned.



You were rude and you didn't listen. You knew he wanted to talk to you about cameras and jumping and you deliberately made it impossible for him to do so. He's an instructor, and part of being a good instructor is helping people understand the non-obvious consequences of what they're doing.

The correct way to deal with the situation would have been "I'm sorry, I've got to leave in the next five minutes to get my passenger home in time for work. Could we chat about this next week?"

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(touching her arm repeatedly while talking to her despite her pulling away), being rude to my brother (STP student), making my buddy uncomfortable (first time tandem with him), etc?



Some people are touchy-feely, and some aren't the world's greatest communicators. None of what you describe sounds like he's trying to persecute you or make your life hell. It sounds like you need to chill out a bit, and realise that he's not the devil incarnate.

Next time you're out and the beer light is on, buy him a cold frosty one, sit down and have a chat about life, the universe, and everything. You'll probably find he has your best interests at heart.

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You were rude and you didn't listen.



I agree!>:(

As an experienced skygod, it is my duty to size up and cut down newbie 100 jump wonders. It is similar to a hazing ritual. I want them to know that I’m watching them. Just hoping they make the tiniest error so I can jump all over them about it!

Sometimes my behavior causes newer jumpers to quit the sport or visit other dropzones just to avoid me. If this happens, I usually find out where they are jumping. I then assign a local skygod to harass them so they can break their spirits also! It’s quite fun, and it’s all in the name of safety.

UntamedDOG

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Ask some of the other, more experienced jumpers (or instructors) at your DZ if they see any problems with your jumping, skills, safety, etc.

It's always possible that he really does see something wrong, and you're being too sensitive about it. Try checking in with other people to see what they think.

If no one else sees anything you're doing as a problem, maybe just sit down with him and ask him what he thinks you're doing wrong.


Don't take this the wrong way, but I've seen lots of students who think they've got everything under control, when really they are just this side of a being a big divot in the ground. You definitely want to be sure you're not one of them before you decide this is simply a personality issue.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Sage advice, along with some of the others above.

Politics continues even when you've got thousands of jumps.

I didn't think they let you out of the BASE Zone, Tom....
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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Just my 2 cents. I know I am low in numbers, but here is my idea.

Step one after sunset load grab two beers.

Step two have a conversation with this instructor where you express how you feel about the tone he uses with you, and that you are uncomfortable with him touching you. Be sure to keep an open mind and really listen to what he says to you. The mind is like a parachute it works best when open.

If nothing else is accomplished it will put everyone on the same page in a relaxed atmosphere. Maybe if you have this conversation in a more relaxed frame of mind it may benefit everyone involved more than a shouting match between loads.
Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

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That also goes for you, if you want to be taken seriously, fill in some of your profile. As it is you are just noise on the net.

Real Name: No name entered.
Email: No email entered.
Jump Profile
Home DZ: No home dropzone entered.
Gear
Container: No container entered.
Main Canopy: No main entered.
Reserve Canopy: No reserve entered.
AAD: No AAD entered.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Why does that make a difference?

You can put anything you want in your profile and still nobody knows who/how you are.:o

I have never understood why some people put so much into this "Profile Thing"

I would even venture to bet (not that it can be proven) that most of the profiles on this board are exagerated in one way or the other.

I don't put all of my business in my profile either, and do you know why?

It's because it's really nobodys business.

It's a god damn message board for christ sakes.....not a college exam.

:::I may be wrong, just ask Spence....he knows all.

Ya know i love ya Spence.....in a straight way.;):ph34r:

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Yuppers I dont fill out my profile, those who know me in real life know my name, my home dz and well I state my numbers all the time... so yes that changes... This is a public forum and that information is public on the profile... I dont choose to expose everyone to my likes and dislikes and my email address is none of anyones business, and I dont have a rig

Just as I know who to listen to on here for advice, I know who not to listen to... also I gave non-skydiving advice and advised him on his response to a person, his behavior to a person... pretty sure there isnt a slot on my profile that would state my knowledge or lack there of, of people in general and behavior
Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

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wow. Crow, i think you need to take a step back and really look at the situation. I only have 54 jumps, and in no way do i think I am above the instructors at my DZ like you seem to think. If ANY of them, come to me with a concern, i will listen, even if it is somone on student status, i will listen... afterall, they may have just been taught something right, and see that i have done it wrong/dangerous. ...

now, lets look at the stats... you, 100 or so jumps. only making a few jumps a month. The instructor... in the sport at least 5 years, at least 500 jumps... I'm curious, can you let us know of what his stats are? ..

What if, he went to you in concern.. He saw that you had a camera, and took it in freefall... ok, I'm sure you know there are more risks when jumpinng with a camera, even if its just the mount on the camera.. Maybe this instructor wanted to talk to you about the risks, give you some advice on what to do in emergencies, how to deal with camera flying, even give you pointeres. By running, and blowing him off, you may have signed your own death certificate. never know.

I'm not sure that i would ever want to jump with you. Seems like you are possibly a hazard to those who are on the same jumprun as you.

hey, maybe you are 'the shit' in the air. i don't know that, its just numbers.. but do you really think that you can know as much with 100 jumps as someone with 500+ jumps?

more i wanted to say, but forgot the different points that i wanted to address. oh well.
CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

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Yeah, that's my fear is becoming a problem child after a good several year clean record over male egos.

buy him a beer, talk to him. tell him there is something you dislike in his attitude, but you go to the DZ for fun and not for drama. Let him explain his point of view. Beer together. Slap hands, do the super secret ninja handshake and then you won't necessarily be friends, but the situation will be clear.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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I had a similar issue at our DZ... not with another jumper, but a person who will remain incognito for purposes of this post. I had to work with him every weekend. He did something that royally pissed me off, I fumed and festered about it. He thought I was mad about something entirely different, he was pissy with me. My husband got caught in the middle, the DZO was getting fed up with the shit. He was told basically to fix it or they would get involved.

He took me aside, asked me to chat with him one night after jumping was done over a couple of beers. Turned out that several months of being at each other's throats every second was more miscommunication than actual intentions. I don't know about him, but I felt really stupid raising a stink for that long over nothing.

I still work with him every weekend, we still give each other a hard time, but in that good amiable kind of sense. He's one of my favorite people at the DZ.

There are 2 sides to every story. Don't let this linger. Basically, be more mature than I was in a similar situation :P

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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Well,if no one else at the DZ is giving you crap it must be a personal thing.The DZO is probably as sick of this guy as you are and I see in his future a life like Skymonkey13,bouncing from DZ to DZ cause no one can put up with him for very long.Oh wait,thats my life:)

.

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BTW, I'll give you another example. He seems to have a guilt complex around quiet people. G/f coming in for first solo STP landing. This guy has the radio, is guiding her, but saying goofy things like "the dog ate my cookie, haha"... then "left turn".. "that dog keeps taking my cookies!". I know her and she's very, VERY nervous. I quietly ask the senior instructor, who is her STP instructor, to do the radio. He does.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

He was being grossly unprofessional by cluttering the radio waves with goofy jokes. That is the worst thing he could do to a nervous student.

You were correct/mature/responsible in asking another instructor to talk your girl friend down.
If this problem persists, tell a third instructor about it.

Incidentally, I have taught skydiving for 24 years now and have never heard that sort of foolishiness on the radio!

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