yoink 321 #1 July 22, 2004 This came to mind after reading an old thread about what to do if you find yourself with a PC in tow... I was bored last night so decided to experiment. I put my gear on and tried a couple of drills suggested. The one I used was: Safety Count (done on all drills) (4 seconds) Locate Problem Look, locate, Cutaway Open Riser Covers Clear Risers Locate Bridle and pull pin (assuming it's still around) Knock main tray Pull Silver. This is about as good as I could come up with. It took me a minimum of 17 seconds to pulling my reserve and I screwed it up more than once. Assuming my normal pull hight of 3000ft, that's trying to get my reserve out 2 seconds after impact. Not to mention opening time... From the video, at cypress activation altitude, it looks like I was just locating the bridle. The thought of what might happen if the reserve fired in this configuration sucks. I don't like the idea of getting my arm caught up in my deploying reserve! PC in tow is bad news, but be careful you dont make the situation worse. Be aware that this is a very complex, high speed mal and that emergency procedures like the one above are difficult to get right on the ground first time. In air at 120mph it'll only get harder. For what it's worth, I think I'm sticking with my normal reserve drills. OK, it increases the chances of a 2-out, but my cypres would have taken care of that for me anyway. They're simple and don't require massive amounts of altitude. OK, you might be able to speed up a drill like the one above, but I did it conservatively with safety in mind. Do you really know what you'd do if you found yourself with a PC in tow? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #2 July 22, 2004 ***Safety Count (done on all drills) (4 seconds) Locate Problem Look, locate, Cutaway Open Riser Covers Clear Risers Locate Bridle and pull pin (assuming it's still around) Knock main tray Pull Silver. Quote i've never heard such a drill. either pull silver (with ot without cutaway, your call) or try to reach back ONCE to free it. if you try to do all of it, as you noted, you'll die... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yoink 321 #3 July 22, 2004 It's not a recognised drill and should not be followed! - it's just what I would like to do if I had available altitude. if I didn't make it clear in my original post, this is NOT a recommended drill, it's mainly meant to point out the problems associated with trying to solve a high speed mal by being too clever. I wrote the post because all the situations / solutions / advice previously had thrown up questions, and I don't like the idea of trying to answer those questions for the first time in air when there's a problem. This solves some of it - if you try a 'perfect' fix, you die. End of story. It sorted out a question in my mind and I thought it might do for others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JustRelax 0 #4 July 22, 2004 my strategy is bang bag with elbows (loosens bag)and dip into a track (more air to catch). I haven't practiced it though. ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yoink 321 #5 July 22, 2004 and then what? how long do you track for? Are you sure you can knock the main tray of your container with your elbows? I can't... Have you considered that knocking the main tray probably won't do anything if the pin is still in place? If the pin is out and it's just the tension of the container holding the bag in place, then fine, but if the pin's still there your drills don't do anything except lose you altitude... you're still going to be low... see where I'm coming from? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverton 0 #6 July 22, 2004 DO NOT TRY THAT PROCEDURE You are travelling 110MPh and someone fired a planet at you. It takes to long Just breakaway and pull reserve. Why do we make some subjects more difficult than it is. By breaking away you ensure your main will leave without much resistance in case it deploys together with your reserve. You have a very big change your main will not even come out of the bag. What you do is primary your own decision. I will pull my breakaway pillow!! According to your profiles you guys are rather inexperienced. Please ask your local instructor about his oppinion Do not try to experiment. Current procedures have evolved in time till wath they are now. As simple as possible. Easy to remember, even in a high stress situation ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lasse 0 #7 July 22, 2004 Doesn't sound safe, not safe at all. Pull, pull at right altitude, pull at right altitude with stability... Pulling your reserve two seconds after impact is not going to save you. A two out is not so bad seen from that perspective. Heres my idea: grab your handles - changes the airflow around your body - if that doesn't help (nothing happens) I'd cut and pull. Yes the main could start deploying and it could entangle with the reserve, but the result most likely is going to be better than before (and nothing will get much worse anyway even in case of a total on your reserve) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverton 0 #8 July 22, 2004 Your main is not likely to deploy if disconnected at the 3-ring system. The force required to pull the linestows out the rubber bands should be enough to disengage the rings. (You do have tight stows, do you ??) Remember, your shoulder covers are open and the main-risers pushed out of position while your reserve deploys. Without disconnecting your main you have a far bigger change the canopy's will both deploy. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yoink 321 #9 July 22, 2004 I've not made myself clear - this post is not advocating changing your reserve drills. Quite the opposite. It is demonstrating in a practical manner that there is not enough time to play with this type of mal and be clever about it. The poll was just to show that we, as a group, are not agreed on the subject. that is all. do not change your reserve drills Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,116 #10 July 22, 2004 I've had a PC in tow once or twice, in an earlier, more experimental with gear life. I just went to my reserve. Much less thought that way. This was before I had a 3-ring, so cutting away would have taken longer, and I was pretty sure the problem was a loop that was too tight for the pilot chute I had, so only the PC was out. Consider what you would do if you didn't have a Cypres to save your ass if you kept messing with it, and do that. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #11 July 22, 2004 Why not go to an instructor and ask them to run you through EP for the different problems. With 200 or less jumps do you think you should be posting advise on how to handle a PC in tow? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites yoink 321 #12 July 22, 2004 [head in hands] *sigh it wasn't meant as advise... I apologise if it was taken as such... I was questioning the reason we have threads that have differing opinions on how to handle it... If I'm questioning it, then I'm thought that maybe others are as well. I know I'm inexperienced and that's exactly why I posted - to point out how confusing and more importantly, wrong, some posts can be... I'm asking for this thread to be locked.- it's being taken in the wrong way. The last thing I want is for people to change their reserve procedures... That was the point.... apologies all Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites towerrat 0 #13 July 22, 2004 KISS One drill pretty much covers it. Unless I have nothing out ( impossible pull ) I will cut away and go to reserve.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #14 July 22, 2004 I think Yoink was attempting to proove that the idea of "fixing" a pilot chute in tow is a bad idea. Certainly a worthwhile attempt. Interesting findings, too. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
yoink 321 #3 July 22, 2004 It's not a recognised drill and should not be followed! - it's just what I would like to do if I had available altitude. if I didn't make it clear in my original post, this is NOT a recommended drill, it's mainly meant to point out the problems associated with trying to solve a high speed mal by being too clever. I wrote the post because all the situations / solutions / advice previously had thrown up questions, and I don't like the idea of trying to answer those questions for the first time in air when there's a problem. This solves some of it - if you try a 'perfect' fix, you die. End of story. It sorted out a question in my mind and I thought it might do for others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustRelax 0 #4 July 22, 2004 my strategy is bang bag with elbows (loosens bag)and dip into a track (more air to catch). I haven't practiced it though. ________________________________________ Taking risk is part of living well - it's best to learn from other peoples mistakes, rather than your own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #5 July 22, 2004 and then what? how long do you track for? Are you sure you can knock the main tray of your container with your elbows? I can't... Have you considered that knocking the main tray probably won't do anything if the pin is still in place? If the pin is out and it's just the tension of the container holding the bag in place, then fine, but if the pin's still there your drills don't do anything except lose you altitude... you're still going to be low... see where I'm coming from? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #6 July 22, 2004 DO NOT TRY THAT PROCEDURE You are travelling 110MPh and someone fired a planet at you. It takes to long Just breakaway and pull reserve. Why do we make some subjects more difficult than it is. By breaking away you ensure your main will leave without much resistance in case it deploys together with your reserve. You have a very big change your main will not even come out of the bag. What you do is primary your own decision. I will pull my breakaway pillow!! According to your profiles you guys are rather inexperienced. Please ask your local instructor about his oppinion Do not try to experiment. Current procedures have evolved in time till wath they are now. As simple as possible. Easy to remember, even in a high stress situation ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lasse 0 #7 July 22, 2004 Doesn't sound safe, not safe at all. Pull, pull at right altitude, pull at right altitude with stability... Pulling your reserve two seconds after impact is not going to save you. A two out is not so bad seen from that perspective. Heres my idea: grab your handles - changes the airflow around your body - if that doesn't help (nothing happens) I'd cut and pull. Yes the main could start deploying and it could entangle with the reserve, but the result most likely is going to be better than before (and nothing will get much worse anyway even in case of a total on your reserve) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #8 July 22, 2004 Your main is not likely to deploy if disconnected at the 3-ring system. The force required to pull the linestows out the rubber bands should be enough to disengage the rings. (You do have tight stows, do you ??) Remember, your shoulder covers are open and the main-risers pushed out of position while your reserve deploys. Without disconnecting your main you have a far bigger change the canopy's will both deploy. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #9 July 22, 2004 I've not made myself clear - this post is not advocating changing your reserve drills. Quite the opposite. It is demonstrating in a practical manner that there is not enough time to play with this type of mal and be clever about it. The poll was just to show that we, as a group, are not agreed on the subject. that is all. do not change your reserve drills Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,116 #10 July 22, 2004 I've had a PC in tow once or twice, in an earlier, more experimental with gear life. I just went to my reserve. Much less thought that way. This was before I had a 3-ring, so cutting away would have taken longer, and I was pretty sure the problem was a loop that was too tight for the pilot chute I had, so only the PC was out. Consider what you would do if you didn't have a Cypres to save your ass if you kept messing with it, and do that. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #11 July 22, 2004 Why not go to an instructor and ask them to run you through EP for the different problems. With 200 or less jumps do you think you should be posting advise on how to handle a PC in tow? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #12 July 22, 2004 [head in hands] *sigh it wasn't meant as advise... I apologise if it was taken as such... I was questioning the reason we have threads that have differing opinions on how to handle it... If I'm questioning it, then I'm thought that maybe others are as well. I know I'm inexperienced and that's exactly why I posted - to point out how confusing and more importantly, wrong, some posts can be... I'm asking for this thread to be locked.- it's being taken in the wrong way. The last thing I want is for people to change their reserve procedures... That was the point.... apologies all Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #13 July 22, 2004 KISS One drill pretty much covers it. Unless I have nothing out ( impossible pull ) I will cut away and go to reserve.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #14 July 22, 2004 I think Yoink was attempting to proove that the idea of "fixing" a pilot chute in tow is a bad idea. Certainly a worthwhile attempt. Interesting findings, too. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
