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jumpjunkie2004

Downwind Landing vs. Low Turn

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While skydiving in Mexico yesterday, one of my friends fractured his pelvis in two places. I spoke with him this morning.

He was coming in downwind and decided to turn around. Basically, he was too low to make the turn.

I am thankful that he is alive and that it's only his pelvis that is broken.

Please people - learn from the mistakes of others.

I don't have very many jumps, but it seems like it would have been far safer for him to land downwind and do a PLF.
Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat...

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Yes a downwind landing IS safer than a low turn! I personally am shocked at how many people are afraid to do a downwind landing! It should be a basic skill everyone has on his or her canopy. Because someday circumstances will conspire to put a person in a situation where they have to decide to do a low turn to face the wind or land downwind. Low turns are dangerous, and flat turns are nice but sometimes the best option is a simple downwind landing. If a person is afraid to land downwind then I personally think they do not have the skills to be flying that particular canopy.

I hope your friend heals well.
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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Please people - learn from the mistakes of others.



Read the last 10 years incident reports (particularly canopy stuff). There are a lot of 'turning into the wind' incidents and fatalities (each one reading almost identically). I wish it was part of the first jump course.......

As always, it's a result of poor planning and approach to canopy flight. If you're making that decision that late, you're way behind the curve [:/]

Hope your friend heals up.

Blues,
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

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downwind crosswind in wind is better than a low turn....unless the low turn is done in a manner that keeps your canopies lines at stretch on both sides...

this can be done by doing a "flat" turn or by even keeping both toggles used in the turn keeping the canopy pressurized...but a flat turn at your jump numbers is probably the safest way...but when in doubt (and having not played with these methods up high) downwind or crosswind is better than pounding into the ground.

cheers

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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Sorry about your friend geting hurt.

Get with a canopy coach and learn to do flat turns from half brakes. It's basically slowing down the canopy so you can make gentle turns without a lot of bank angle and the resulting speed and rate of descent increase. It's just like slowing a bike way down before making a turn, lets you do it easily, without a lot of lean.

For the situation of which you spoke, a flat turn lets you attempt to get into the wind, and at anytime you can simply flare to land, without exiting the turn. That lets you get as close as possible to facing into the wind, without the risk of a steep low turn. So many novices a being brainwashed to never turn low. It's not how low you turn, it's how you make that turn.

Anyway, it's a HUGE survival skill, worth at least a jump or two to practice it. It will probably save your ass someday, if you jump long enough.

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For the situation of which you spoke, a flat turn lets you attempt to get into the wind, and at anytime you can simply flare to land, without exiting the turn. That lets you get as close as possible to facing into the wind, without the risk of a steep low turn.



An important skill. IMO EQUALLY as important as learning how to make decisions early enough not to need to flat turn. Except for last minute avoidences, if you're doing a flat turn, you fucked up and let yourself get behind the curve. Addressing that is FAR, FAR, FAR more important than landing into the wind.

edit: to be clear I'm not advocating 'landing into the wind', it's a mindset I detest. Instead I'm a strong advocate to landing in the set direction (same as everyone else) for the load -however you set it.

Blues,
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

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Ironically, we are both scheduled to take Scott Miller's course on June 15th.

I've had the course before and I'm looking forward to taking it again.

I took it when I had 13 jumps and I immediately thought it(or a similar course) should be required before you get your license.

Everyone spends an enormous amount of money on gear - they should be willing to spend a few dollars on getting some extra training.
Jump, Land, Pack, Repeat...

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Just learn to jump at the Ranch, where the wind goes from 0 to 20 to 0 on one ride to altitude. What's "into the wind" on the way up is "no wind" or "downwind" on the way down. You learn to land downwind really fast.

Glad your friend will heal, JJ...
_______________
"Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?"
"Even in freefall, I have commitment issues."

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I've screamed in some downwiders (I've got issues with reading windsocks...:S) that resulted in roll after roll after roll, a shredded poptop and a scratched helmet. I do them exactly once a year, on the windiest of days when the most people happen to be watching.

Nothing more than a bruised ego. I could perhaps do a hardcore PLF - but there's always that temptation to think you can run it off! ;)

Still, I resist the temptation to turn low. Anything but a low turn. As has been said, look at the incident reports! You can scream in a downwinder leaving a dust cloud behind you like a bomber coming in to land...but you'll probably walk away. It's all well and good to say 'do a flat turn', but once you're at a certain altitude on a really windy day, i'm not gonna even attemt a flat turn that i know i can do on a less windy day. It might work fine. Or I might go from 'bruised ego' to 'dead' by screwing it up. Sooooooooo not worth it!

---------------------------------------
Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

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Downwind - been there, did that ;)

PLF'd and let the good ol' rig take the abuse as I slid across the ground.

The experienced jumper that landed right after me ran over to check on me and qualified it with, "I swore you were going to need an ambulance from the speed you were going."

Got a good talking to from the DZO, who even took the time to walk out of the hanger and meet me on the way back across the field.

While he did, for a brief second, listen to my arguement that a downwinder was better than a really low turn, he did ask, "Why did you get into a situation where your two only choices were a low turn and a downwind landing?".

The lesson, stay ahead of the jump to the point that you don't get into a situation where you limit your options to a low turn vs. a down-winder.

The point was well taken. :)

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Every first jumper I've ever trained has had it drilled into their head that turns close to the ground WILLl result in injury.....they must be flying straight on touchdown, under control.....even if it means hitting an obstacle.....and being under control is most important....it gives you time to prepare for the landing....

Of the 10,000 + first jumpers I've trained, I've never had one injure themself landing in a turn....

In a turn, the parachute is not acting as a parachute, it is falling out of the sky....

To the person who states flat turns are OK.....you just keep tryig them then...I guarantee you'll get a ride in an ambulance at some stage....

Ignore that advice....

Its a dumb thing to say, because it only takes the smallest misjudgement while doing a turn (or turbulence for instance)....and you will be bitten for certain.....

Better not to go there in the first place....

You need to be thinking about your landing before you do it, not during it....

Be aware...with altitude up your sleeve....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Better not to go there in the first place....

You need to be thinking about your landing before you do it, not during it....

Be aware...with altitude up your sleeve....



Right there, in a nutshell, is where it's at.

Blues,
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

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here we get into an area of contention. A smooth controled flat 90 to avoid an obstacle under a 290 manta is not as hazzardous as hitting a harvester. I'd rather break a leg than be impaled on a big metal hook 14 feet up with internal injuries and a reinflating canopy.

As for low turns to face into the wind, however, I've lost one friend to it and seen lots of other injuries. Not worth it. We've all eaten the downwind, there's no shame.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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the ONLY issue with landing downwind is if the other jumpers "traffic" on the load are landing into the wind.

the only difference to landing downwind as opposed to into the wind, is ground speed.

landing downwind is fun. don't be scared.

get some canopy coaching, realize the truth, have some fun.;)

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Downwinder in 5-7 mph winds and a PLF into a plowed field left me with only a slightly twisted ankle this last weekend. I'm sure that had I tried to get around into the wind by the time I realized how much the wind had picked up that I'd be in casts or worse. Realising at 50 feet that the wind picked up a lot and no matter what you are landing fast its better to PLF and bruise the ego (and dirty the gear) then it is to need an ER trip.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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You may be right, for you, but my contention is simply if you have to be doing 90 degree turns at the last second then you've either had your brain switched off, your eyes shut tight, or both......

Harvesters arn't that common, and usually they are big and brightly coloured.....

You shouldn't be suddenly coming upon them, and they don't jump out of the trees to get you....

A 5 degree turn 50 metres before an isolated obstacle should see you miss it easily.....

I wouldn't advocated anyone teaching a student to make flat turns close to the ground...theuy have too much other stuff to think about when learning, and their inexperience will mean they'll screw it up at least once....And once is all it takes....

But good practices learned while a student will stay with them for life.....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Every first jumper I've ever trained has had it drilled into their head that turns close to the ground WILLl result in injury.....they must be flying straight on touchdown, under control.....even if it means hitting an obstacle.....and being under control is most important....it gives you time to prepare for the landing....

Of the 10,000 + first jumpers I've trained, I've never had one injure themself landing in a turn....

In a turn, the parachute is not acting as a parachute, it is falling out of the sky....

To the person who states flat turns are OK.....you just keep tryig them then...I guarantee you'll get a ride in an ambulance at some stage....



And there is an Easter bunny and a Santa Claus. Don't forget to tell them about the Tooth Fairy too.

Walt

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I'll agree in part, there is no excuse for hitting an obstacle ... ever. harvesters and cultivator don't jump out of the bushes.

A first jumper, however, should not be afraid to avoid an obstacle. If you imply that it is better to hit an obstacle than do a low turn to avoid it, the student will second guess his altitude until he's too low to do anything about it.

I make it clear that a 360 or 180 will dive you into the ground if you are too low but a flat 90 is appropriate for obstacle avoidance.
At 200 feet I want them to react, not wonder if they are at 50 feet yet.
I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

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