More dangerous, tandem or sport jumping?

[RTB 0]

From a discussion in the incident forum.
Are there more actual injuries or fatalities in tandem jumping or regular sport jumping?
Sure the tandem system is more complex but TI's are also in general more experience and trained to a higher standard.
I would believe tandems have a lower rate of injuries.

Thoughts?

[justinb138 0]

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I would believe tandems have a lower rate of injuries.

If you're talking about instructor injuries, I'd strongly disagree.

For student injuries, I'd agree with that.

[narcimund 0]

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Thoughts?

These discussions would get a lot further if people would CAREFULLY define "more dangerous".

Until then it's just a bunch of fluffy psuedo-analysis with lots of emotional bias, anecdotal testimonials, and wishful thinking.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[RTB 0]

What I am thinking of is rate of bodily injuries of the student as compared to the rate of injuries on all other skydives.

[The111 0]

People often use statistics to try to prove how safe or dangerous an activity is. There is a problem with this.

Statistics do not describe how inherently safe or dangerous an activity is - they describe how successfully it is being done.

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Sure the tandem system is more complex but TI's are also in general more experience and trained to a higher standard.

What you wrote here demonstrates my point entirely.

As another example, consider driving. Very simple in principle and yet so many people fail to do it safely. So driving accidents happen quite frequently. This does not mean driving is dangerous or difficult.

Piloting a jet airliner is much more complex, requires much more skill, and there is much more that can go wrong, so you could say it is inherently more dangerous. But jet airliners rarely crash, because of the level of attention of the pilots.

My opinion is that tandem skydiving is inherently more dangerous than sport, but statistically there are fewer incidents (leading many people to conclude it is "safer", when it is actually just "practiced more successfully").

The line gets blurred when you consider being a passenger (on a jet airliner or a tandem parachute system). As a passenger, statistics DO actually matter since you have no degree of control over the outcome of the event. As a driver/controller, ultimate safety level is determined by YOU. Even the other stupid people on the road or in the sky are only variables that add to your role as a self-pilot.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[nbblood 0]

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My opinion is that tandem skydiving is inherently more dangerous than sport, but statistically there are fewer incidents (leading many people to conclude it is "safer", when it is actually just "practiced more successfully").

That's pretty much what I was thinking.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[jdfreefly 1]

It was explained to me this way:

A tandem skydive is the safest way for a student who has never made a skydive to jump from an airplane.

From the instructor's point of view, it is the most dangerous way for them to get that student from the airplane to the ground.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[narcimund 0]

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What I am thinking of is rate of bodily injuries of the student as compared to the rate of injuries on all other skydives.

Rate per day spent jumping?
Rate per lifetime?
Rate per jump?
Rate per minute in freefall?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[RTB 0]

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Rate per day spent jumping?
Rate per lifetime?
Rate per jump?
Rate per minute in freefall?

Let say per jump.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Let say per jump.

There was a 3 year stretch at the beginning of the decade when there were no tandem fatalities in the US. Then it seems like 1 per year. Lately...still seems like it's doing better than 1 per 100,000, so above sport jumping.

Injuries - who can tell. Definitely is hard on the TIs.

As mentioned, well trained TI and a very safe dive flow (high opening, restrictions on who is nearby) make up for the inherent dangers.

[Deuce 1]

Well said.

On the older Vector system the tandem skydive starts out with the drogue functioning as a pilot chute in tow.

No drogue, no main. If the drogue gets entangled at the throw and can't be released you have a horseshoe malfunction that you then have to launch the reserve into, preferably before you attain terminal tandem velocity (200mph+).

I could never have done a tandem without knowing the instructor very well. Funny, now that I think about it, both tandems I did were with women, Connie and Spooky.

It's not a roller coaster ride. That passenger is under a death sentence on exit unless I do everything right. Even then, we could go in for reasons I would have no control over.

A tandem skydive is not a roller coaster ride.

[Ron 7]

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My opinion is that tandem skydiving is inherently more dangerous than sport, but statistically there are fewer incidents (leading many people to conclude it is "safer", when it is actually just "practiced more successfully").

Agreed 100%

The very nature of two people in freefall strapped together, with the need for a PC in tow basicly, and a reserve that may or may not survive a terminal deployment 100%. Makes Tandems much more dangerous than a regular sport jump. The added training and requirments (500 jumps, 3 years in the sport, a cutaway, and another rating) make sit so that the higher level of skill offsets the danger in most cases. But that does not mean it is more safe, just handled better.

Also, when comparing the two, you have to consider that more "fun" jumps are made than tadem jumps.

So given the higher rate in which sport jumps are made, the lower qualifications/training/experience need to sport jump. It makes sense that there are more sport accidents than Tandem accidents.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[MarkM 0]

Tandems are way more dangerous. It's just more sport jumpers go in because they add more risk to the jumps to make it enjoyable and are likely more prone to be complacent.

But then maybe "more or less dangerous" depends on the type of sport jump. If I pop some smoke, fly my wingsuit past a bunch of canopies at 2k taking some shots with my camera helmet, deploy at 1.5k and land a velo 78 in a nice long swoop every jump, then maybe that's more dangerous than doing a tandem.

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

[I agree 100% with this statement

reply]It was explained to me this way:

A tandem skydive is the safest way for a student who has never made a skydive to jump from an airplane.

From the instructor's point of view, it is the most dangerous way for them to get that student from the airplane to the ground.

[packerboy 3]

Do you seriously do that? I could see someone doing all that, but without the Velo.

Low, Velo, Camera, Wingsuit.... scary combo.

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[AFFI 0]

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Do you seriously do that? I could see someone doing all that, but without the Velo.

Skydiving without a parachute seems to the the most dangerous of all.

Okay, who is first?

[MarkM 0]

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Do you seriously do that? I could see someone doing all that, but without the Velo.

Low, Velo, Camera, Wingsuit.... scary combo.

No, I jump a nice docile Hornet and haven't put on a camera yet. But I've seen it done more than once

[Acoisa 0]

Who gets hurt more often in tandem jumps- the TI or student? - and why?

[packerboy 3]

Right.... got me there, you know what I mean

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In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson