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mereanarchy

Opposite of downsizing too fast?

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Hey all! I am a newbie, 40 jumps, currently on a PD260 loaded at 0.86. The PD has about 200 jumps on it total, so it isn't a ragged old canopy.
I currently have zero desire to downsize, but I want to see if there are any downsides to staying at a lower wingloading for too long? IE. bad habits that can come from that, etc. It certainly seems like everything I am reading would encourage how I feel, but there also doesn't really seem to be a topic that covers the opposite.

Would love some experienced thoughts on this...

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A couple thoughts, a 260 at .88 puts you at the 'bigger' end of skydivers, and if what you are jumping is an actual PD260 (as-in the model 'PD260, and not a 260 built by PD which could be a Navigator) than what you have is an F-111 canopy.

F-111 is a different animal than a zero-porosity canopy, and in truth, .88 is a fairly high WL for that type of canopy. You would probably not want to jump anything smaller than a 260 in F-111 given your size and experience level.

That said, a z-po canopy is going to be a better choice for sure. A 240 or 230 z-po canopy will land you just as soft, and will do better in winds. Some people will argue that the F-111 is 'just fine', and it might be, but a z-po canopy is 'just better'.

For the record, my first 100 jumps were on various F-11 canopies from 280 down to 190, with a max WL of about 1.1 to 1.

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Dave, I am 200 without my rig on my back, so about 225-230 out the door. It is a true PD260, so yup, it is a F-111.
I love my canopy for sure, I just wasn't sure if I am doing myself a disservice by staying down.
So far I have jumped a Nav-280 and a Sabre-2 260 on student status, liked the Nav but hated the Sabre-2, but my favorite so far is this PD.

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I want to see if there are any downsides to staying at a lower wingloading for too long?



In a word... No. The longer version is it might slow down a progression to smaller canopies, but you have said you are not that interested in that and personally I think people should slow down the downsizing progression anyway.

I had 300 jumps on really lightly loaded F111 canopies. I have still managed to jump canopies from 69sqft to 300sqft AND not been broken in the process.

So, as long as you are happy, you will be fine. And I think when it comes time to downsize (which honestly NEVER has to happen) then you will be better for the time spent on this wing.

The only downside is dealing with winds. With a light WL, you will have to stand down sooner than with a higher WL. That honestly is the only "downside" I can think of.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Sure... and with my VAST amount of experience I feel super confident in my assessment, lol ;)

in the 20 or so jumps i had on the Sabre-2, never once did it open fully inflated. Always had one, or both, end cells closed, which wasn't a big deal, but somewhere in my pea-brain a warning light goes off saying THIS SHOULD OPEN THE WHOLE WAY AT LEAST ONCE! Maybe an effect of light wingloading?
Also could not, for the life of me, get the flare to agree with me. When on the Nav-280 I was regularly having standup landings, and when on the Nav-260 (Albeit I only jumped it a couple times) my landings were smooth, but on that dang Sabre-2 I popped up 5+ feet on my landings almost every time. I say almost because I finally got the pop controlled somewhat before I switched to the PD, but I felt like I was always fighting what I "naturally" wanted to do in terms of a flare vs what the canopy wanted/needed me to do.

On the PD, the flare the canopy seems to want, and the one that I want to naturally give it, seem to be much more in tune with one another... if that makes sense?

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Sure... and with my VAST amount of experience I feel super confident in my assessment, lol



Well, your assessment of why YOU didn't like it is valid.

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Always had one, or both, end cells closed, which wasn't a big deal, but somewhere in my pea-brain a warning light goes off saying THIS SHOULD OPEN THE WHOLE WAY AT LEAST ONCE! Maybe an effect of light wingloading?



End cells not opening is not a big deal. You can fly that thing all the way to the fare and it will not be a big deal. Yes, WL can play a part.

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When on the Nav-280 I was regularly having standup landings, and when on the Nav-260 (Albeit I only jumped it a couple times) my landings were smooth, but on that dang Sabre-2 I popped up 5+ feet on my landings almost every time



The Sabre 2 is a "better" wing. Which means it will generate more lift at a given airspeed. You were trying to fly the Sabre like you were flying a student canopy. That would be like trying to land an F16 like a Cessna 150.

Different canopies need different techniques. Sure, the basic concept is the same but the high performance wings need higher performance thinking.

With a student canopy, we expect the pilot to flare pretty quickly and the canopy needs to not react badly to that. A true sport canopy will have a more powerful flare, but that means the flay has to be dynamic where you temper the rate of the flare to your distance and speed across the ground.

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On the PD, the flare the canopy seems to want, and the one that I want to naturally give it, seem to be much more in tune with one another... if that makes sense?



Yep, but recognize that you can learn another process.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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End cells not opening is not a big deal. You can fly that thing all the way to the fare and it will not be a big deal. Yes, WL can play a part.



I agree completely, and never had an issue getting them opened, it was just "one of those things"

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The Sabre 2 is a "better" wing. Which means it will generate more lift at a given airspeed. You were trying to fly the Sabre like you were flying a student canopy. That would be like trying to land an F16 like a Cessna 150.



I realize I really have no clue, but I don't feel like I have been "punching out" my flare, although if I understand you correctly I must have been to get the pop up? I also understand the need to change my own flying characteristics to match the needs of the canopy, at least to a point. But at what point does the pilot decide that that particular canopy isn't the right one? I did learn to modify my flare on the Sabre-2, and minimized the pop up, so I think that had I stuck with it, I could have removed it completely, but I certainly never felt comfortable or happy with it.

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Yep, but recognize that you can learn another process.

sure, definitely, agree 100%.

As I learn more about canopies, what canopies are out there that are a good go-between from the PD, which I am loving, to something as dynamic as the Sabre-2? It felt like a big jump, but everything feels like a big jump with only 4 months experience.

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I have over 300 jumps on my Sabre2 170 and end cell closure is very normal on my wing. Nothing to worry about, just a gentle tug on rear risers and they open up right away.

One thing to keep in mind is how long the brake lines are.

If the brakes on the other canopies you jumped were on the longer side (which would be normal for student canopies) and the brake line on the SA2 you jumped were "about right" or a little short, then it would exaggerate the effect of the "better wing" Ron mentioned.

i.e. shorter brake lines + a more efficient wing + early/long/stabby flare could result in popping up a bit on landing.

So if you jumped a SA2 with better sized brake lines, you might not find the flare to be way out of your comfort zone.

however, if you are flying a canopy with a weak flare and the brake lines are a little long, a flare that feels right to you will not translate to other canopies (in other words, it might not be just the SA2).

There is nothing wrong with not liking the sabre2. Plenty of people would agree that it isn't a bad canopy, just not the one that they want to fly.

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thanks for the response...I was just curious. I'm not looking to convince you to fly a canopy just because I love it. Canopy choice is a personal decision and one that only you can make for yourself. There may come a time when you progress to a point where you want a higher performance wing and change your mind, but that's your decision to make.

I agree that your issue is likely that you went from a hybrid student canopy with a student oriented flare characteristic to a higher performance canopy with a completely different flare and likely experienced an unexpected but significant increase in performance which caused your increased lift. I can land at 3/4 flare on my sabre with two steps and a comfortable landing but I do like having that extra bit of lift if I need it. I jump two rigs and the flares are completely different. My main rig is a sabre 2 210 at just about .95 and a joule 180 f-111 9 cell with a steep angle of attack that is loaded about 1.11. They are completely different animals and they flare in completely different ways but I land them both very comfortably and on target.

As you grow in the sport you will come to understand the characteristics of your canopies well and you will be fine. There is nothing at all wrong with staying on a larger wing. I grew up on a drop zone in the 80s and heavily loaded wings were very uncommon around there. I developed the philosophy that I enjoy the jump and the canopy ride enough...I don't need to make it more dangerous to enjoy it. I will stick with my lightly loaded sabre 2 and it's forgiving nature. If the winds are high enough that I'm not sure about the sabre then my joule gets me where I want to be just fine.

Don't rush to do something that could hurt you. It's hard to enjoy this sport from a wheelchair.
www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

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but I don't feel like I have been "punching out" my flare, although if I understand you correctly I must have been to get the pop up?



It is basic canopy flight physics: The higher performance canopies react faster to inputs. So the input on a lower performance canopy will have a bigger result. (Understand that I am using low and high performance as general terms. The Navigator is a high performance student canopy. And high and low performance is subjective to the pilot. I'd personally find a Sabre 2 as 'low' performance but that does not mean anything but to me).

I'll give you an example.... I own a Citabria and am Renting a Pitts Special while I look for one to buy. If I am coming in to land and I yank back on the Citabria's stick.... Not great, but it will mush a bit, maybe pop up. At this level of MY EXPERIENCE in the plane it is not a big deal and I can still land the plane. If I did the same exact action in the Pitts.... Aw crap. It is going to jump up into the air, airspeed is going to drop like crazy and there is a really good chance I might stall it. I'd better go around. Now take a guy with hundreds of hours in a Pitts and he could do the EXACT same thing and still land with no issue.

My experience - Its a big deal
His experience - Eh, a non-event.

The only way for me to get from where I am to where he is, is by doing it a bunch.

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But at what point does the pilot decide that that particular canopy isn't the right one? I did learn to modify my flare on the Sabre-2, and minimized the pop up, so I think that had I stuck with it, I could have removed it completely, but I certainly never felt comfortable or happy with it.



They decide to change canopies when they want something that what they have now is not doing what they want. I bought the Citabria to learn to fly a tail wheel airplane. I went to my first competition in it and everyone else in my class had a Pitts. So if I want to be competitive, I will need more plane. so when you want something else, that is when you change.

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As I learn more about canopies, what canopies are out there that are a good go-between from the PD, which I am loving, to something as dynamic as the Sabre-2? It felt like a big jump, but everything feels like a big jump with only 4 months experience.



Between the PD and the Sabre 2? The Navigator would be a good step between the two IMO. I was actually pretty impressed by the Navigator (The school I worked at let me jump one so I would know what the students were flying).

Other options:
A Silhouette. the Sabre 2 is semi elliptical, the Silhouette is "lightly tapered". The more elliptical a canopy is the faster it will react to toggle input.

The Pulse might be a good choice. I don't think I have flown one. But it is a "lightly elliptical". It also is a hybrid made of f111 and ZP fabrics. It should be easier to pack.

Maybe you should look at 7 cell designs. The Spectre and Storm are both 7 cell and normally these are not as fast turning and not as high performance as traditional 9 cells.

In the end, the only person who can pick a canopy for you.... Is you. Anyone can give you guidance, but it is your butt in the seat and we can't fly it for you.

When you are ready to get something else.... When you are unhappy with your current wing for some reason (to include just wanting something else), or you want to be able to do something you can't with the wing you have.... That is when you change. If you are happy with what you have, there is no reason to change.

Someone did mention this, but I'll mention it again. F111 canopies do not last as long as ZP. The performance starts to drop on the first jump and keeps dropping for a while. I have jumped the same size and style F111 back to back at zero jumps on a new one and at 500 jumps on an old one and I could tell the difference.

Summation (IMO): You can jump what you have now for a VERY long time. The time to change is when you want to change. Only you can decide what you like.

We will guide you as much as we can. I'd suggest trying the canopies listed above at the same WL as you are at now and see what TYPE of canopy you like.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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In my opinion, the Sabre 2 is an awesome canopy.

You've got to figure out what you're comfortable with, and how you want to progress in canopy flight.

A navigator will respond like a student canopy. It will fly like a student canopy, and it will land like one.

A sabre 2 is an intermediate canopy, with all of the flight characteristics that come with one.

I agree that at some point a canopy is just not for you, but you should consider that along your canopy progression path canopies will handle differently. If you have aspirations to get into high performance canopy flight, it may be better to begin learning how modern canopies fly. The Sabre 2 is an awesome canopy. You can learn a lot about canopy flight under it.
William

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Two points here...
A. If the winds are enough to ground you on a lightly loaded canopy, it's probly to windy to jump regardless of your wing loading. Although, everyone has their own limits. People who jump heavier loaded canopies generally have more jumps/experience/skill. That's what allows them to jump in stronger winds. IMHO

B. No one is saying a progression to a smaller canopy is a bad thing. Just make it a conservative progression. If you were uncomfortable with the Sabre 2, try it again in another 50 or so jumps. When it feels right, go from there. B|

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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I got my first rig fairly early with the plan to stay with what I bought and not downsize. I am loaded at 0.93 on a ZP.

While not an expert opinion, I can tell you my experience.
If it is very windy, I must only go on jumps where I know I can exit well upwind of the DZ.
Good or bad, I am normally the last person to land.
I can get back from a really long spot or long deployment location.
I can't dive it and hold it with dual front riser inputs.
Landings are low impact even when I am not perfect.
Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

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skyjumpenfool

Two points here...
A. If the winds are enough to ground you on a lightly loaded canopy, it's probly to windy to jump regardless of your wing loading. Although, everyone has their own limits. People who jump heavier loaded canopies generally have more jumps/experience/skill. That's what allows them to jump in stronger winds. IMHO



I agree and disagree at the same time. If wind is causing a safety concern for your skill level then loading a canopy heavier is not a good solution. In my case my sabre 2 won't penetrate a stiff wind very well but my joule will, just with a steeper angle of attack so if it's a steady wind that I don't feel like I will get the performance I want in then going with my smaller f-111 works better for me but then again, I am comfortable with both.
www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

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I skimmed the other reply's but here is mine.

When I had about 700 jumps I busted up my ankle. I was jumping a Cirrus Cloud (230, poor wing, flew typical for the time for me) I needed something bigger so I ordered a Raven IV while I was healing. 280, F-111 typical wing for the late 80's. It did what it was supposed to do but not what I wanted. I sold it and got a F-111 Manta (288, zp manta's not available) I had it for a while. In a couple of years I bought I sabre 190. I did a lot of jump mastering so I always had more than one rig and jumped both the Manta and the Sabre interchangeably. But if conditions were squirrel with thermals, wind, etc. and I wanted a guaranteed soft landing I grabbed the Sabre.

I suggest you transition to a moderate ZP canopy, learn to flare it, and you will ultimately be happier, safer in more difficult conditions and will eventually have a high wind limit.

BTW I no have a sabre 190, sabre 170, PD 260, Lightning 198, and Triathlon 190 in rigs. Not into swooping and fast.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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I want to see if there are any downsides to staying at a lower wingloading for too long?



Not a one. The PD F-111 260 is an awesome canopy. Most of us remember when tippy-toe landings on the X were cool. Everything else that needs be said; has been said by those above.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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I appreciate everyone taking the time to reply. I certainly don't plan on downsizing soon, and wanted to make sure I wasn't hurting myself in the process. I intend (but you know what they say about that) to have my next canopy be a zp, with something a little more playful, but I have zero interest in ever swooping, if anything I see myself going the way of accuracy more than anything.
I also agree that what I love now will change as my skills grow. Heck, it's always possible I will come back in 200 jumps and declare my new saber-3 (cause, ya know, it's the future) to be the best thing ever :D

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jump what you like but there are better options out there than the out-of-production F111 canopies of yesteryear... sure they work, but I'd rather jump just about anything else off the rack than that given a choice :P

if you like the flare style of an F111 wing, check out the PD Pulse

you might find that the two-stage flare of the marginally higher performance wings like the Safire2, Pilot, Sabre2, etc is more to your liking as your canopy skills progress... it certainly gives you more options than "bury the toggles and hope for the best"

and btw, even if you "have no interest in swooping" that doesn't mean you need to keep the training wheels on forever ;)

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

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I jumped a PD after I got my A license as the first canopy I could afford. Loaded very similar to you, I think. I got spanked so hard on an opening that I was out of jumping for about 3 months, and to this day still have issues where my neck/shoulder meet on my left side. It was packed by a packer that day, but it could have happened when I packed it too....and I'm sure my poor body position as a newly licensed skydiver did not help me either. Anywho, all I am going to mention is F-111 is definitely not as forgiving as some of the zp stuff....although there are zp canopies out there that are known for spanking too.
Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

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Anywho, all I am going to mention is F-111 is definitely not as forgiving as some of the zp stuff....although there are zp canopies out there that are known for spanking too.



Uh, I have the exact opposite opinion. ZP will normally open harder than F111 canopies. In fact, the type of material should not really matter that much. The F111 will wear in/out faster. In the old days an F111 would get so worn out that they would take forever to open.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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If you're progressing and learning under a canopy you enjoy flying, then there's really not a good reason to change. It might be the model A of canopies, but there are people who enjoy those.

I too have a decent number of jumps on lightly-loaded F111 canopies; they were fun, and I could easily go back to jumping them. I also don't particularly care for the Sabre 2 (but I also don't jump a lightly-loaded F111 any more either :ph34r:).

As long as you're not trying to learn something like swooping on this, there's no reason not to jump it. If you own it, wait until you feel as though you've really plumbed its depths (at 40 jumps, you haven't), and have a good idea of the direction you want to go in canopy-wise.

A parachute that has you landing smiling and walking away is a good parachute for you.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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