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meistwer

Is it really necessary the FS1 b4 you freefly?

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Hi guys,

Here it goes.

I've heard divided opinions about this subject. Some people says before you freefly you need to get the FS1 (FS skills qualification for RW obtained in the UK) others say that you don't need it. Some freeflyers say that you don't need to learn any belly flying to FF as it is a complete different discipline with different skills required.

What is your opinion on this?


Blue ones

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Personally I think its a great idea to get your FS1 (or at least some basic belly skills) before you start freeflying, this is for a few reasons:

It teaches you the basic fundamentals of how the air affects your body and placement in the sky. You learn a lot about how to fly with other people but at slower speeds and generally on one level.

Even if all you want to do is become a freeflyer, at some point those belly skills will come in handy, especially for things like hybrids.

And lastly, being in the UK and under the BPA rules you have to at least fulfil all of the reuquirements of the FS1 (everything but the 4 way) to get your FF1. This means unless you have the basic skills you wont be allowed (according to the official rules anyway) to freefly with anyone else but a coach in the UK.

Just my opinion.

http://www.avalorefreefly.com
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Jezzzz, that sounds familiar.:S When I started out, eons ago, I didn't want to do learn anything but RW or, if you will, belly flying. All the other skills (style, accuracy) were for those old guys who weren't quite with it anymore and seemed a waste of my time and money. Well, with a little encouragement from an old fart or two, I took a step back and listened and learned those disciplines. You'd be surprised how many of those techniques those old bastards taught me helped me progress to my ultimate goal with a greater degree of confidence and safety. Any skill you can learn in this sport will only enhance your ultimate goal and may just save your ass/arse someday.
The older I get the less I care who I piss off.

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Flying is flying. Freefly includes bellyflying. At the very least, your FS1 (we have a similar one here in DK) teaches you valuable survival skills, such as keeping track of others, break off, tracking, relative motion, coasting and whatnot - all which will benefit you as a freeflier.

If you can't demonstrate safety on your belly, why should someone else risk his or her life taking you on a freefly jump where everything happens faster? Where collision speeds are much higher and instability more likely?

I dunno. Makes sense to me.

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Agreed. I hear some FF-only guys say they can fly "in all 3 axes". What some of them forget is that you also need to master flying in both planes, i.e., not just vertical but horizontal, too. If, for example, I can't trust your tracking skills, or you're going to backslide up & down the jump run, you're gonna make me nervous. And don't even get me started on the belly-flying skills needed to be a good AFFI.

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Some freeflyers say that you don't need to learn any belly flying to FF as it is a complete different discipline with different skills required.



If you want to do more than just play with yourself doing solos there's a lot of overlap. Regardless of body position you need to be able to quickly make up for horizontal and vertical separation, dock gently, keep formations stable, not drift away when changing grips, and get decent separation at break-off.

It's easier to learn all that when you're not trying to master a more difficult body position at the same time.

Hybrid formations are fun. You can make much bigger hybrids (especially with small doors) if everyone gets together while falling slowly and then speed it up for the vertical fliers.

While trying new things is interesting, skydiving is mostly a social sport. Belly flying is the greatest common denominator and lets you jump with everyone. The basics are also much easier, so if you want a sunset 10 way or something you'll be a lot more likely to pull it off when you're flat.

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Some freeflyers say that you don't need to learn any belly flying to FF as it is a complete different discipline with different skills required.

Blue ones



These are probably newer freeflyers. You don't need to be able to bust lots of points in time but you need to be able match or greatly change fall rate on your belly AND back. You need to be able to move around and fly your slot. Can you start freeflying without those skills? Sure you can. Do solos or 2-ways with experienced freeflyers just don't forget IT'S ALL FREEFLYING! If your lacking in any orientation...you suck!;)
Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

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These are probably newer freeflyers. You don't need to be able to bust lots of points in time but you need to be able match or greatly change fall rate on your belly AND back. You need to be able to move around and fly your slot. Can you start freeflying without those skills? Sure you can. Do solos or 2-ways with experienced freeflyers just don't forget IT'S ALL FREEFLYING! If your lacking in any orientation...you suck!;)



:D

belly, back, upright, headdown, and all in between

i find those those that talk big about freeflying to extent of belittling other disciplines are actually just wanting to spend all their time on their head (just one orientation) and aren't nearly as good as "real" freeflyers - who act completely differently about becoming total body flyers

BTW - learning to bust a ton of points gives you a ton of skills that also apply to freeflying - and, if you learn to backfly, bootie fly, upright and headdown also - amazingly, it also helps in learning how to bust a ton of points.....:o

It's not about the discipline you choose, it's about your attitude in pursuing your skydiving goals.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Some freeflyers say that you don't need to learn any belly flying to FF as it is a complete different discipline with different skills required.



Umm....

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What is your opinion on this?




They are jackasses?

Anyone who still makes the divide between the modes of flight an uncrossable line, not only doesn't know their ass from a hole in the wall, but is just plain missing out.

It's all about flying the body. Head down, head up, back, bell, side, whatever.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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No matter what type of jump you do, when the fun is over you return to your "belly fly" postion to pull. And its at this time you had better have your shit together because fun time is over. Its time to take care of busness.:)
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Some freeflyers say that you don't need to learn any belly flying to FF as it is a complete different discipline with different skills required.



These are probably newer freeflyers.



Yup. I've never heard a freeflyer with over a thousand jumps say that.

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Now that I put my beer down and reread your post then I read mine and thought...I couldn't agree more! And damn I came off as a dick...sorry;). I had no desire to do any kind of Belly flying but the minimum I needed to. Then I went to the tunnel. I shared some time with some belly flyers that blew my mind. I never realized how aggressive RW was when it bas being done well. I then started to notice that the best freeflyers were good belly flyers too. Decided it was time to do a little more of that RW stuff. I havent dedicated much time to it yet (so much good skydiving left to do!) but it's on the agenda for after this season, learn to be a kick ass belly flyer.
Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
Check out these Videos

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at my dropzone youre not allowed to do freeflying of any kind until you have fs1 and 100 jumps, helps force you to learn all this stuff i suppose. i felt like i wanted to get straight into freeflying when i qualified, only doing rw as a matter of course so i could get cracking on sit and stuff, but the first time a pulled off a spanking 4-way exit with some good friends and then managed a hold-of of just fingertip slot-flying for 5 secs or so, made me realise how much fun it really is. i used to have lots of problems with fall-rate (so damn slow!) but now ive sorted them out i can be alot more comfortable keeping up with people. still tried a little sit and stand in spain which was fun, but found myself trying to put together more 4 ways, even attempted a few noticably unsuccesful 6-ways :P

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Now that I put my beer down and reread your post then I read mine and thought...I couldn't agree more! And damn I came off as a dick...sorry;).



You came across very well and I agreed with you totally. That's why I bought the beer. My stuff was just agreement and more of it. Diablopilot did more too on the same vein - real nice post.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Just to add to the other great advice you've been given thus far...

On my 200th jump we decided to do a 10 way to celebrate. The plan was to exit with 6 of us in a linked, flat base, then the others would dock on us and we'd make it a round. Then key it to a sit. Most of us on the dive were freefliers. Again most of us were freefliers that hadn't done any RW since AFF.

To cut a long story short, it was an absolute disaster. We looked at vid and stills after the jump and saw that not one of us freefliers remembered to arch on our way out the door. Disgusting.

Since then i haven't devoted a lot of time to serious RW. But i can film four and eight way quite comfortably, plus chase a tandem on my belly if i have to.

Some of the most enjoyable "freefly" dives that i've done recently have involved starting with a flat exit. learning how to fly all surfaces of your body isn't something you should do to become a great freeflier. It's something you simply MUST do.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

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I have yet to meet a really good freeflyer who was not also a good belly flyer.

Rook Nelson, several time World Champion freeflyer by the age of 25, also has gold and silver RW medals from the US Nationals and was on the 16-way RW team which set the record for the most points "in time".
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I get pretty frustrated when people are unwilling to learn to belly fly. I mean sure, freeflying is cool. I can do both, and have been spending quite a bit of time learning to freefly, but I was on a 4way team before that, and learned to fly video too!

If you are uncapable of being on a basic 8-12 way your going to have problems when special jumps come up. Your going to have problems being part of that cool sunset load or milestone jump.

I also don't think you can be a safe flyer if you are not competent on your belly. I think you should have the skills to be apart of a belly jump of equal size as a freefly jump (more complex body positions and much faster speeds). Basically that means if you want to do a 10 way sit/hd jump I think you should have the air skills and awareness to do a basic 10 way belly skydive.

I see it with some of the people at my dropzone, they completely skipped RW and went right into FF and when we are putting together sunset loads they get to sit out because of it.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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You suck anyway, go home!


Dude, awesome day Saturday. Enjoyed those jumps with you.

You are jumping at Hinton so you may want to spend your next 30 jumps doing RW and coaching so you can get your FS1 to continue your sit flying.

Stupid huh.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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I think you should have the skills to be apart of a belly jump of equal size as a freefly jump (more complex body positions and much faster speeds).



that's a really good way to put it - just a simple safety argument

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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This was discussed at the AGM in january when the new standardised route was brought in to earn your FF1, it is advisable you complete a portion of the FS before starting Freeflying but not vital to gain your FS1
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LittleDJ!!- There is no such thing as a perfectly good aircraft!!!

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I think you should be able to fly on your belly before learning freefly but i do not think you need to do warp coaching and pay for all this and pay for a 4-way jump for FS1 just to start learning how to freefly.

I think you should learn the basics, FS1 is not the basics, FS1 is learning to fly 4way.

I think England is the only country to have this system put in place and it is a crock of shit, a waste of money if you are not interested in belly flying.

Times have changed, the sport has evolved, Freeflying is part of the sport and rules should change to encourage freeflying not making it harder and costing more.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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At hinton the rules are as follows.....

You must have a minimum of 100 jumps and FS1 before starting to freefly.

I think anyone starting to freefly should have at least 50 jumps and be signed off by an instructor, but FS1 and 100 jumps... Why? Who the hell says flying on your belly is safer than flying in a sit position? is there some sort of statistics to say this is safer?


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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>Why? Who the hell says flying on your belly is safer than flying in a sit position?

Me, for one.

If you have a premature deployment in a sit, your odds of malfunction/injury are higher due to the incorrect body position and higher speeds.

Most people 'recover' to their bellies. You must be proficient at belly flying to avoid corking into someone if you do have to recover.

While sitting you are less likely to stare at the ground. That increases your chances of losing altitude awareness.

In a sit you are falling faster. For someone who learned to skydive on their bellies, that means a shorter freefall when you sitfly. And if you rely on a sense of timing for altitude (as some students do) you are at risk for going low.

There's a reason we do AFF on our bellies. It's easier to fly that way, and easier to learn all the other stuff (like altitude awareness) in a stable body position - which a sit is not.

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