security regulations in Russia

[riggerrob 558]

Sounds like the poor S&TA at Kolomna has the same problem as every other S&TA on every other DZ on this planet: visiting jumpers doing stupid things under canopy!
Hee!
Hee!
Hee!
What do Russians care if stupid Germans kill themselves under canopy?
The manpower shortage (canon fodder) will just slow them down the next time they invade Russia!

[NWPoul 1]

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If you know Russian language, you'll get a highest possible quality of instruction at Kolomna or Stoopino. If you don't, I strongly do not recommend to do AFF in Russia. Language barrier, you know...

Nobody from AFF instructors at Kolomna speak english?

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you know Russian language, you'll get a highest possible quality of instruction at Kolomna or Stoopino. If you don't, I strongly do not recommend to do AFF in Russia. Language barrier, you know...

Nobody from AFF instructors at Kolomna speak english?

Unless they're using it heavily on a daily basis, it's hard to stay current enough on a secondary language to avoid misunderstandings. And this sport isn't too tolerant of those.

[vonSanta 0]

Last weekend I found out interesting thing. Foreign jumpers at the Kolomna... are the MOST UNSAFE there! Every day I heard S&TA screaming 'WHAT THE #### ARE YOU DOING THERE!!!' on some 'skygods' breaking all landing patterns, landing across the windblades, doing the most stupid things I've ever seen there.

Heh, you know I love the Kolomna DZ DancinFlames, but I gotta say that you have some regulars there that are just as bad as the foreigners.

The "GOGOGOGOGO" idiots I really hated. They're in place at just about any DZ, so I wouldn't say this is a Kolomna only problem. I'd turn around and smile, taking an extra two seconds every time those arseholes started their crap. Can't control the group after me, but I can control the separation between me and the group before me. Spot too long? Go around - I ain't gonna increase the risk of dropping down onto someone because someone think I'm too slow out the door (3-4 secs is not enough from the MI-8, no matter what some skygods think).

We had a discussion about pulling low - some of the Danish dudes did it to get increased vertical separation - knowing full well that vertical separation is error prone and doesn't work that well. After a few close calls, some thought the extra risk of going a little lower actually decreased the total risk due to a lower chance of a freefall collision. After you see a dude or two go swooshing by in freefall as you sit under your canopy just below a cloud, you sorta start to think along those lines.

In this respect, Russians were as much to blame as foreign skydivers. I *really* hated the GOGOGOGOGo assholes.

Load organizing was confusing, with an occasional mixed load - freefliers, then belly jumpers, then freefliers. Probably a communications problem though, as the load organizers didn't speak much English. Took me three days to figure it out (by then I'd picked up enough Russian to catch his meaning). Usually there was an experienced Russian on the load making sure everyone exited in the correct order, which helped greatly. But load organizing is very confusing to a foreigner initially, since the first to go out to the planes are the last out and the load organizers don't speak English. You sorta have to look over your shoulder to see who you're going into the plane after. Or if it's the helicopter, you gotta check the group who went out ahead of you.

We were briefed on the landing pattern, and it was basically ("if you come in from the left, do a left hand turn, from the right, do a right hand turn. Don't come in over the buildings. Don't land in the instructor/tandem area". I'd have liked a left or right hand approach better, and perhaps some kind of stack order, but the former may be hard to enforce due to the "no one over the buildings" rule, which is quite sensible.

The spiralling down the pattern assholes cut us off a number of times. I had arguments with both Russians (Victoria the video-woman flies like Russian cab-drivers drive - aggressively, squeezing in if there's a chance they'll fit) and foreigners over this, so I don't think foreigners are solely to blame for this issue. I guess there are stupid foreigners just as there are stupid Russians.

I got two yellow cards while I was there - one when I landed as the last man, out by the windoscket, where I was told I could land into the wind instead of following the red arrow, and one for landing outside the beer line area after a bad spot (straight in approach all the way)

These are the only issues I have with Kolomna - other than this it's a kickass place. Great people, great coaches, great women-packing-in-bikinis very well organized, very quick to respond to cutaways and out-landings (they'd even use the MI-8 to pick people up/find cutaway canopies/freebags!). The staff know how to do their job.

Who pulls low? German skydivers... they pull at 2500 feet!
It is a rule in Kolomna: pull at 1000 meters (3100ft) or a bit higher, - it means, at 800 meters (2500 feet) you MUST be under your fully inflated canopy!

Yeah, but they're GERMANS. They're supposed to be clueless . Seriously though, they did go low on every jump, the lot of 'em. "Ah, there are the Germans", we used to say when we saw a group of low-pullers.

Another rule: follow the landing pattern! as big red arrow points! DO NOT look on the windsock, do not break landings of you teammates !

Yeah; I was kinda surprised that a lot (and DancingFlames is right on this one) foreigners couldn't understand this simple rule. Maybe we're too used to going by the windsocket from the jumps at home? Anyway, having some stupid arse German dude with a ponytail coming at you on a collision course 90 degre to your left is NO fun. At least he got a yellow card.

Who breaks all the rules? Right, foreign jumpers. I can't understand, WHY? Is it too difficult to follow those simple rules? There are so much talks about safety on this forum! Sorry for my rude words, just can't hold my tongue where it should be

Just gotta say; I saw Russians breaking the rules too. Not as frequently (except the local skygods who couldn't get a yellow card for anything; low "hooks" on toggles cutting off people ought to warrant a yellow card), but they did it too. There are dangerous Russian skydivers just as there are dangerous foreign skydivers.

This summer our S&TA made two cards: yellow and red. Before, there were no need in them.
Now, there is. Yellow card means that jumper will be grounded for some time. Red card means that jumper will be grounded for this day and possibly for some more day.

Heheh, almost after every jump, I'd be looking at Roman (think that was his name) with a "wtf did I do wrong THIS time?" look on my face. He'd smile evilly at me every time. He's a cool dude, even though my sister got 5 yellow cards (we only figured out what two of 'em were for).

Perhaps the higher frequency of foreign rule-breakers can be explained by miscommunication during the briefings? When there's no English speaking person around, explaining the rules can be kinda confusing.

Looking forward to next year. How about you stop doing that silly 40 man bigway RW stuff and come with me for a few freefly jumps? "Oh there's DancingFlames, wonder if he'll jump with me? No? Busy doing big ways? This weekend too? Umm, ok. Asshole." .

The 40 way looked cool dude.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[NWPoul 1]

May be you are right, but I think that during AFF programm the instructor's base english skill will be enough.
Instructor mostly show what student should do, correct his body position/movenment on cart during earth training, all jupms before student jump out from the plane simulated on earth, unlike other jumpers student can listen only his instructor and in case of unsure can ask him to repeat/explain one more time and another words - so IMHO there is no exelent english needed =).

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[kelpdiver 2]

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May be you are right, but I think that during AFF programm the instructor's base english skill will be enough.
Instructor mostly show what student should do, correct his body position/movenment on cart during earth training, all jupms before student jump out from the plane simulated on earth, unlike other jumpers student can listen only his instructor and in case of unsure can ask him to repeat/explain one more time and another words - so IMHO there is no exelent english needed =).

All my AFFs (a whole horde of them) spoke English as their primary language to me and it still was fucking hard to get through a few barriers. Maybe those folks on the better than average side would do fine with the extra layer of Russian accenting but I'd hate to have to deal with that over the sound of the prop as the door opens.

Jump plans are easy.

Telling a big guy like me what he's doing wrong with his leg awareness is a different matter entirely. I don't think any of the people I worked with could. None of the written references I looked into could. I don't think any of these people had any idea - the notion of this problem might just be foreign to them. I wanted to see something like - relax all the muscles but these and these. (Quads and lower back, I think?) Use the abs to dearch a bit...etc. What finally got me through all this was wind tunnel time where I had 2 minutes at a time, where the instructor could mold my legs as I looked at the mirror. And of course no ground to distract.

I guess that rant doesn't really show home to be any better than over there, but I don't see the language change helping.

[NWPoul 1]

uf-f-f, speaking honestly, my poor english does not alow me to understand what you wrote clearly =/.
(it can be consider as argument that your right about language problem =))) ).

could you please say anohter word what did you mean by this?

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Maybe those folks on the better than average side would do fine with the extra layer of Russian accenting but I'd hate to have to deal with that over the sound of the prop as the door opens

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[Push 0]

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Maybe those folks on the better than average side would do fine with the extra layer of Russian accenting but I'd hate to have to deal with that over the sound of the prop as the door opens

Mozhet bit' shto te kto i tak luchshe chem srednee poimut dazhe esli u instruktora accent, no mne bi ochen' ne hotelos' s etim stalkivatsya pri shume propellera v otkritoi dveri samoleta.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[NWPoul 1]

Thank you Eugene)
to kelpdiver: out of curiosity - what exactly did you heard from your AFF instructors when the plane's door was opened ???

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[Push 0]

You're very welcome

Izvini, no perevodit' ves' ego post mne chut' ne po silu

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[kelpdiver 2]

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out of curiosity - what exactly did you heard from your AFF instructors when the plane's door was opened ???

Aside from a useful discussion of spotting at Perris that I might have understood half of due to the noise and my helmet, nothing in particular. But jump run is the last time in which the dive plan might be altered.

Accented English (or any other language for that matter) is even harder to understand in a noisy environment. Your brain tries to fill in the gaps based on your experience with word sounds but it's not reliable for a second language speaker. With time you understand them better.

[Mad47 0]

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May be you are right, but I think that during AFF programm the instructor's base english skill will be enough.

Disagree. It is very important for instructor to be able
to establish a good emotional contact with a student and support and influence him/her in stresfull situation. Language barrier is not going to help here. I am talking form personal experience. Two years ago, after I screwed up AFF level 2, I was terrified of going up again and was seriously thinking about stopping. Lloyd Lee, one of my AFF instructors, recognized the problem, took me to his trailer and talked to me for ah our or so. This person was able to influence me, calm me down and prepare me emotionally for the next AFF level and 500+ jumps. I wanna be like him is I ever become instructor.

[DancingFlame 0]

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Nobody from AFF instructors at Kolomna speak english?

Some of them do. But I believe they won't take foreign students. Minor misunderstanding can lead to unsafe situation. If it can, it will. In Russia, every fatality means there will be a long investigation (reasons of the incident), DZ will not function for 2-3 weeks or more. Nobody wants that. Nobody want people to die

[DancingFlame 0]

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Heh, you know I love the Kolomna DZ DancinFlames, but I gotta say that you have some regulars there that are just as bad as the foreigners.

Yeah, you mean DZO (Roman) Well, you may try to restrict him from doing weird things

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The "GOGOGOGOGO" idiots I really hated.

Freefliers exits are too slow. Mi-8 takes up to 26 people onboard and flies with 100 km/h speed. If you wait 3-4 seconds, it is enough to separate from other 2-way freefly formation. If you wait more, people after you is going to land somewhere far from airfield...

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I'd have liked a left or right hand approach better, and perhaps some kind of stack order, but the former may be hard to enforce due to the "no one over the buildings" rule, which is quite sensible.

After we had out packing tent broken for the third time , DZO decided nobody will fly above the buildings. Do you want to land safe? Land 100 meters away from the tent, closer to the windsock! It will take 1 minute to get to the tent and you will make S&TA happy

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I had arguments with both Russians (Victoria the video-woman flies like Russian cab-drivers drive - aggressively, squeezing in if there's a chance they'll fit)

She had to make 100 jumps per week with Maria Riabikova (world champing in skysurfing), so she need to land as fast as possible. I know this is a bad excuse but it still is...

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I got two yellow cards while I was there

Man, you scares me! I got one warning in winter (for a 180 approach, they are restricted at Aerograd)

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Yeah, but they're GERMANS. They're supposed to be clueless

And they are

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Heheh, almost after every jump, I'd be looking at Roman (think that was his name) with a "wtf did I do wrong THIS time?" look on my face. He'd smile evilly at me every time. He's a cool dude, even though my sister got 5 yellow cards (we only figured out what two of 'em were for).

Uhh, I always thought women flies conservative patterns
Roman is a DZO. And that BIG GUY always sitting at the boarding line is S&TA 'Mikhail Vasilievitch'. You know, every jumper in Kolomna looks at Roman or S&TA with the same impression, even me Every time I silently ask 'did I make ALL RIGHT?' but they just evilly smile .

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Perhaps the higher frequency of foreign rule-breakers can be explained by miscommunication during the briefings? When there's no English speaking person around, explaining the rules can be kinda confusing.

Yes, it seems like you are right. Before, there weren't as much foreigh skydivers at Aerograd. I believe, this summer we had more foreigners than local jumpers there!
It is quite confusing when Natasha (that cute girl from manifest ) says 'fifty minutes call' instead of 'fifteen minutes call'. I tried to explain that fifty does mean 50 and mot 15, but she just cant remember this. Roman (DZO) is sending some staff for 'spoken English' courses... I believe next summer there won't be that problem at Aerograd.

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Looking forward to next year. How about you stop doing that silly 40 man bigway RW stuff and come with me for a few freefly jumps? "Oh there's DancingFlames, wonder if he'll jump with me? No? Busy doing big ways? This weekend too? Umm, ok. Asshole."
The 40 way looked cool dude.

Hey! I know you made some belly-jumps with Sally
We are preparing for a 110-way boogies in August. Next year we will not, so, freefly will be accepted. You know, I liked jumping in shorts ! For the first time it feels kinda weird but it's easy to get used to it! Just like a cold shower... oh, did I mention they finished the hot showers? Yes,exactly when you left

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These are the only issues I have with Kolomna - other than this it's a kickass place. Great people, great coaches, great women-packing-in-bikinis , very well organized, very quick to respond to cutaways and out-landings (they'd even use the MI-8 to pick people up/find cutaway canopies/freebags!). The staff know how to do their job.

Agree! Kolomna is a kick-ass place. As you said, russian women have GREAT boo... err, bodies

By the way, what about Slovenia ? Do you remember that funny talking about the best slovenian chicks ?

[NWPoul 1]

I see, but it seems to me that we have miss the point - Sonia going to trip in Russia so is there are a possibility for her to kill two rabbits at once =) - visit russia and became to skidiver here =))) or this is an "idea fix" (i.e. unreal)

P.S. to Max, was you at DZ at St. Petersburg, what do you thing about it?

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[jerry81 10]

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By the way, what about Slovenia? Do you remember that funny talking about the best slovenian chicks?

Hey! What about Slovenia?? Were you and Claus dissing our girls without us knowing? Or were me or George in on it as well?

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[vonSanta 0]

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Yeah, you mean DZO (Roman) Well, you may try to restrict him from doing weird things

Heh, I think that'd be a rather futile task .
I was more thinking of some of the jumpers. The ones that were there during the week as well as the weekend were good, but some of the ones that came during weekends did some stupid shit. Dunno their names (you're all Vasiliy's, Ivan's, Olga's to me ) though.

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The "GOGOGOGOGO" idiots I really hated.

Freefliers exits are too slow. Mi-8 takes up to 26 people onboard and flies with 100 km/h speed. If you wait 3-4 seconds, it is enough to separate from other 2-way freefly formation. If you wait more, people after you is going to land somewhere far from airfield...

I disagree with you here. I'm gonna put up a scenario in the Safety And Training forum when I have some more time, so it can be discussed - I might very well be wrong, and if I am, I wanna know.

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After we had out packing tent broken for the third time , DZO decided nobody will fly above the buildings. Do you want to land safe? Land 100 meters away from the tent, closer to the windsock! It will take 1 minute to get to the tent and you will make S&TA happy

Heh . Well, it's not about landing close. It's about people on the sidewind (what's the English name?) leg heading collision course towards each other, with one doing a left hand pattern and the other doing a right. There was no real order in the pattern that I could discern, other than "watch out for the spiralling shitheads" . Fortunately, most were conservative and it was quite OK, but it's unnerving when you have to brake hard because someone spirals down right in front of you and then turns, oblivious to your presence, to a collision course.

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I got two yellow cards while I was there

Man, you scares me! I got one warning in winter (for a 180 approach, they are restricted at Aerograd)

Heh did ya read what I got 'em for? First one: landing according to the windsocket, right next to the windsocket, on a windy day when the arrow appeared stuck on something. Second: straight in all the way after a bad spot; just shy of the beerline. I think had I been a Russia speaker, Roman wouldda talked to me, told me what I did wrong and not bothered with the card, but since he doesn't speak English, his easiest course to show me that I had erred was to show me the yellow (which is really ORANGE) card .

Every time I silently ask 'did I make ALL RIGHT?' but they just evilly smile .

[vonSanta 0]

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By the way, what about Slovenia? Do you remember that funny talking about the best slovenian chicks?

Hey! What about Slovenia?? Were you and Claus dissing our girls without us knowing? Or were me or George in on it as well?

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You were definitely in, but probably too drunk to remember. We weren't so much dissing them as praising their...physical attributes. Or rather a subset of their physical attributes. I refer to the...ummm...ARTWORK we created that was destroyed if you want to know what subsets

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[jerry81 10]

Oh, you mean this?

Okay, and since this is not the bonfire, I'll add that I have some thoughts of my own about exit order and separation in general, not only in Kolomna (although jumping there is what got me thinking). Maybe a new thread is in order.

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[Mad47 0]

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***Mi-8 takes up to 26 people onboard and flies with 100 km/h speed. If you wait 3-4 seconds, it is enough to separate from other 2-way freefly formation.

100 km/h is ~ 62 mhp. You say you wait for 3-4 seconds and then get out? Have you ever barrel rolled to avoid a freefall-canopy collision? I only had to do it once – unforgettable experience. I also saw a very experienced jumper passing me in freefall as I was sniveling on one my 200sh jumps. Also unforgettable lesson (poor tracking). As far as I know (I am not a freeflyer) one very common mistake novice freeflyers make is drifting in freefall. Now imagine that the group before you drifts up line of flight and you follow them with 3 second delay in strong uppers with only 62 mpg forward speed on jump run. It is much better to land off then to eat someone's PC.
Someone who has more skydiving experience or knowledge of aerodynamics – please tell me I am wrong.

[DancingFlame 0]

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The ones that were there during the week as well as the weekend were good, but some of the ones that came during weekends did some stupid shit.

Hope they got a yellow/red cards.

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I disagree with you here. I'm gonna put up a scenario in the Safety And Training forum when I have some more time, so it can be discussed - I might very well be wrong, and if I am, I wanna know.

There are so much threads about separation in this forum... However, these are my calculations: you make a 1 sec pause before jumping out, then you hang out of the helicopter (3 sec), say 'Ready-Set-Go!' (2 sec) and jump out. That gives you 6 seconds. Or, 250 meters of separation. Isn't it enough for a 2-way or 3-way?

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It's about people on the sidewind (what's the English name?) leg heading collision course towards each other, with one doing a left hand pattern and the other doing a right. There was no real order in the pattern that I could discern,

English name for 'sidewing' is 'base leg'
And there IS a pattern you should concern! There is a rule: you must make you approach from the field! That means, if the arrow shows you it's LEFT side, you should do a LEFT approach. If you come from the field see RIGHT arrow side, make RIGHT approach! It's that easy. I'll try to make an ASCII picture

++++++++++++
+<-windsock+++
+++ FIELD ++++
++++++++++++
++++++++++++
---beerline-------
+++--arrow->++
(buildings)()()()()()()(toilets )

On this, ahemm, picture arrow points to the right. Coming from the field, you see the left arrow side. So, make left approach, left turns.

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He drinks like a bloody monster too. He might be a tough asshole when he's working, but he's very enjoyable to drink with, even though I don't understand shit of what he's saying

Drink some more and you will understand

[vonSanta 0]

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There are so much threads about separation in this forum... However, these are my calculations: you make a 1 sec pause before jumping out, then you hang out of the helicopter (3 sec), say 'Ready-Set-Go!' (2 sec) and jump out. That gives you 6 seconds. Or, 250 meters of separation. Isn't it enough for a 2-way or 3-way?

Maybe a bit of miscommunication. When I say "exit separation", I mean the time between the one groups exits and the next - setup and fumbling around is included.

The GOGOGO idiots started 3 seconds after one group had exited. We're checking line of flight and the other group that just jumped out.

3-4 secs is far too little here. 6 seconds is ok, but ideally it should be a bit more if there's a mixed exit order. IMHO.

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And there IS a pattern you should concern! There is a rule: you must make you approach from the field! That means, if the arrow shows you it's LEFT side, you should do a LEFT approach. If you come from the field see RIGHT arrow side, make RIGHT approach! It's that easy. I'll try to make an ASCII picture

Which is the exact same pattern I described in a previous post. But thanks for briefing me again. Now that I'm in Denmark. Yeah. That'll help
The issue I have with this approach is when the wind is coming from the buildings towards the field. When this happens, people will be on a collision course on base leg - the people coming from the left heading toward the field, the people from the right as well. If someone's setting up a hook turn and is a bit inattentive, things can get interesting.

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Drink some more and you will understand

I tried.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst