A united and respectful skydiving community.

[AFFI 0]

There is often times a barrier of misunderstanding when it comes to comments concerning jump numbers and people sometimes have a tendency to get offended or self righteous, depending which side of the fence they are on...

Personally I have a lot of respect for skydivers with any jump numbers and I am quite certain I am not alone. 100 skydives is a lot, 10,000 is a lot, hell 1 is a lot but to put things into an easier to understand perspective.

At 100 jumps think back to when you had 5 and were still on student status just trying to relax for a solo exit or the challenge of performing fundamental freefall maneuvers and consider all that has been learned in the last 95 jumps. Think of all the new things that have been learned and even all the methods of doing things that have been replaced by more advanced or different methods that are second nature now not but were a struggle 95 jumps ago. This line of thinking applies as jump numbers increase, more is learned, different methods replace older methods and as an individual continues to practice in freefall, performing maneuvers in freefall become second nature and effortless when at one time the same maneuvers were a struggle. Older ways of doing things are forgotten during the evolution of learning and replaced by different, in other words a skydiver with 5,000 has likely forgotten more about skydiving than they had yet learned when they had 100 jumps. A student with 2 tandems taking the FJC might ask me how many jumps I have and when hearing a number in the thousands they are astonished but in reality it is not as big a deal as they believe it to be, it only seems that way because they have only just begun to climb the learning curves associated with skydiving. In turn, as they progress they will learn more and forget more as newer information replaces the old. This example applies to anything all aspects of skydiving, not just freefall; in fact it applies to life.

So when a comment is made about someone with 100 by someone with 1000+, I do not believe that it is meant to be condescending as much as it is an illustration of the fact that there has been less time in which to go through the evolution of the learning curve.

We should all try to respect one another, respect the fact that there is a likelihood that someone with many more jumps might have knowledge their less experienced counterparts have yet acquired and those with thousands of skydives might want to keep in mind that they once had low jumps numbers and back then they deserved and desired respect and acknowledgement that they was skydivers too. And keep in mind that jump numbers do not mean that someone’s opinion or knowledge is less valuable or not of good quality.

We should all try to be united together, and be part of the same family rather than bickering egomaniacs that do not respect and get along with each other.

I do not know if I said all this right, but I have a dream that we can all get along together in harmony and be nicer and more respectful towards one another…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[NWFlyer 2]

Nice dream, really. But highly unlikely...

Because there is ego involved. On both sides.

Because there is human nature involved. We get defensive. We hate to admit that we may be wrong. So we dig our heels in and we fight.

Because there is society involved. Society often tells us that it is someone else's fault, that we have someone else to blame. So we lash out at the other guy rather than looking inward.

Because this is the internet. It's very easy to get worked up at people when you don't have to look them in the eye.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[freefalle 0]

I don't know shit. I learn something every day. and sometimes I get lucky and take a kick ass picture.

[shaiziel 0]

I'll never understand people who are overly assertive and egotistical. Maybe I'm just too passive.

Hell I walked in to a liquor store to see if they had any Czechvar. The guy running it said he didn't and that it was too late to order and have it in that night, so he told me to come back the next day. Well I didn't get back over their til 9:00 pm the next night and as I walk in the door, the guy instantly starts being defensive like "It's too late to order! You should have came by earlier! It won't be here til monday!" Keep in mind this is a relatively older Vietnamese guy with a rather small voice. I was just like "no, no, no, that's ok! I don't need it tonight. Monday is fine." as he sort of continues his, what appeared to be, automatic shield mechanism. I was just trying to soothe his worry that I was going to be some irrational asshole. I assume he's had problems like this where people are like " I NEED 20 CASES TONIGHT AND I DON"T WANT ANY BULLSHIT ABOUT IT!"

The point being, it's agreed that people should be more informative in a less hostile, self-righteous sort of way, but it won't stop people from doing it. I mean the best you can do is try to express to everyone the fact that people shouldn't go around drawing lines and making enemies through assholery. I mean, what's the value of some confrontation that is totally avoidable if someone just keeps their mouth shut, even if it means not retaliating to some other asshole's comment.

Blah blah, just got me going here.

----------------------------------------
6.8% - Almost there!

[squirrel 0]

whenever i begin to even the smallest feeling of " hey, so what if you got lots of jumps..." reaction to someone offering some advice, i think of the profession my father was in...he was a high voltage electrician...the big shit, hundreds of thousand of volts. most certainly more dangerous than skydiving...we (skydivers can make a mistake, and, hopefully recover sometimes, yeah, we have a reserve)...with high voltage guys...there are NO mistakes. you mess up, and you are vapor floating in the wind. so, my dad, after 30 years or so, ran into the same wall, how to give advice to the newbies. you just gotta give it...no matter what the response...offer the info, lead the way, and if they dont listen, well, they dont listen. and he did tell ALOT of newbies to go do something else for a living...(like professional golf)

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[sid 1]

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I don't know shit. I learn something every day. and sometimes I get lucky and take a kick ass picture.

quite a few of which are on the walls of my cabin!!!!!!!!! - you know a little shit Chuck

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[firstime 0]

Great post... a real thinker

[billvon 2,396]

An addendum to this -

Also keep in mind that many jumpers (myself and a lot of people I know included) really did think they 'knew it all' at the 100-500 jump mark. If they come off as really arrogant when they post at that time, keep in mind that it may be more ignorance than arrogance. In other words, they haven't gotten the 'big picture' yet and are just trying to make a place for themselves in the skydiving world. Give them time; they'll figure it out.

[Scoop 0]

One thing I have noticed about the skydiving world is if someone tries to tell you something they often have to tell it in a patronising or sarcastic way. I don't know why that is and I don't paticularly mean online either. It happens at the DZ too.

I remember when I started my apprenticeship and people expected me to know everything about the job. I had to explain that I wasn't one of those fully qualified trainees you so often find

I don't think I'm a know-it-all so when people talk down to me it really puts my back up.

[strop45 0]

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'knew it all' at the 100-500 jump mark

The flip side to this is that having high jump numbers doesn't necessarily make you all things to all people. While some of the questions and comments from people with low jump numbers may seem stupid or inane, they may also lead to innovation or help them or someone else clarify their thinking. Its a lot safer (at least for your body) to test the waters in a forum, than halfway through a skydive.

At my stage of skydiving, I'm trying to learn as much as I can and look at all sources of information, including these forums. Occasionally the posts are all ego, but sometimes they are full of useful and applicable information. For example the post on belly flying was perfect for me at present.

For me the best sources of information on skydiving in order of relevance are:

1) The instructors and staff at the DZ where I jump at regularly. There are three main reasons for this, firstly they are aware of local conditions and issues relevant to the DZ. Secondly, they have jumped with me, watched me exit the plane and land. Finally they depend on skydiving for their living, and keeping me safe is in their commercial interest.
2) Manuals and manufacturers information on the equipment I use.
3) Other experienced skydivers at the DZ. They are a great source of knowledge and often have more time to 'chew the fat' than staff.
4) Books and articles published by well known and respected authors. These are very useful, albeit that for books, sometimes the information can be a little out-of-date.
5) Posts by well known and respected posters here in these forums, e.g. Billvon. Similarly the careful and well thought out posts by a range of others, such as AFFI and NWFlyer.
6) Posts by others who complete their profiles
7) All other posts.

Any other sources I have missed?

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[popsjumper 2]

WooooHOOOO!
I made the list at #7!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DSE 3]

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Nice dream, really. But highly unlikely...
We get defensive. We hate to admit that we may be wrong. So we dig our heels in and we fight.

Lordy, if it were only that simplistic.

First post from poster with 100 jumps~"Where do I find this DVD on XXX?"
Response post from skydiver with 65 jumps~"Yeah, I'd like to find that too. Anyone know where it can be bought? How much it costs?"
Response from skydiver with 500 jumps~"You can't learn XXX from a DVD, you need tunnel time. You're an a$$hole if you don't go to a tunnel, it's cheaper and you can't learn XXX unless you either go to a tunnel or pay much more for a coach and hundreds of skydives.You know so little, you don't even know what you don't know."
Response:~"Regardless, my coach thinks it's a good idea for me to read any/all material related to the subject, and watch any vids I can find on the subject, and I trust my coach/instructor. Her team has done very well in competition. Additionally, it's summer, and tunnel time for me is more of a winter option."
Final response: "Your coach is an idiot, you're an idiot, everyone who doesn't do tunnel time is an idiot."

in different context:
I want to buy a DVD on self-sufficient first aid for my cut finger"
"You can't learn to fix a cut finger from a DVD, you have to go to the hospital."
All I want is to watch a DVD. Maybe it will help me find questions to ask a nurse or a doctor that can teach me better if my comprehension of my cut goes up."
"you're an a$$hole if you don't go see the doctor. You don't even know what you don't know."
"OK, I'll accept that. I've never been a doctor, but I am a trained EMT that worked in an elementary school for years. They're both medically related, but I understand how my somewhat similar experience doesn't make me a doctor, but I'd still just like to buy the DVD. That was my original question. Additionally, my professor thinks I probably will understand more about what I should be thinking of if I watch the DVD."
"You're still an a$$hole if you don't go see a doctor. Your professor doesn't know sh**"

Is that really productive for anyone?
Thanks to people like AFFI, NWFlyer, Billvon, Phreeflyer, and a few others, there are posts that can actually be learned from, rather than made to intimidate or intentionally segregate the community.
Interestingly enough, a local guy who was telling me the other day why I shouldn't be playing with my risers at 4K biffed it very badly on a hook turn a few days ago. He has hundreds of jumps.

Then there are those whose sole purpose is to scream "You moron/idiot/jackass/fool, you shouldn't even be in the air. What makes you think you're human enough to even consider being in *our* sport."
I'd submit that the mere love of flying, the time we've invested thus far and continue to invest, our dedication to improving ourselves, our sometimes feeble attempts to learn difficult maneuvers, our innate desire to survive in challenging moments, and our insatiable need for seeing the world with a different perspective gives us the same right that many of those elitists have forgotten that they to, had to grow into. I meet guys like Jay Stokes, world jump record holder, and they're super-humble, super helpful, and incredibly ready to teach. Jack Guthrie, one of the early pioneers of container design and test pilot for anything that wasn't round...same story. John Stewart at SD-Hawaii...thousands of jumps, inspired, excited, humble as hell. Never dismissive, occasionally humorous about mistakes, but always dedicated to being sure that newcomers are welcome, and pointed in the right direction.

Many thanks to those kinds of people. AFFI, thanks for posting this, I've enjoyed our PM discussions on this subject. I hope it can inspire at least one or two folks take pause before they flame.

[rasmack 0]

The hard thing to remember here is that respect is a two-way street. Many is the time that instructors have given me advice I know to be wrong (say, the 45 degree rule). I never, ever comment on it in front of other people. I smile and nod, and afterwards I try to point the instructor to sources about the subject. I really cannot think of a more respectful way of saying things that need to be said. However, most often I am ignored with a remark about jump numbers. It may of course be that I come off as arrogant but I am doing my best here...

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Hayfield 0]

AMEN BROTHER! PROCLAIM THE WORD!
Seriously though, nice post.
Could it be that people might post snippy comments more often because they're:
A. Drunk
B. At work or
C. Sitting in front of the computer because of poor weather (like our crap here in NY/NJ)?
I've noticed people at the actual dropzone are always nicer to each other...

"Remember the First Commandment: Don't Fuck Up!"
-Crusty Old Pete

[skymama 35]

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Lordy, if it were only that simplistic.....

You forgot to mention that you called someone condescending, arrogant, pathetic and a smarta$$. If you speak to someone in negative ways like that, you've got to expect that you're going to get treated the same way in return. Respect goes both ways. If you can't take it, don't dish it out.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[DSE 3]

You're right. I did use those words.
In response to being attacked for wanting to merely buy a DVD. Not to mention the PM's that came along with being attacked for wanting to simply buy a DVD, like two other people in the same thread. Calling us stupid and ignorant calls for a similar response. I can take it just fine. Problem is, it shouldn't have happened in the first place. Once it did happen, it should have been moderated/edited, IMO. It only serves to make the community look bad to newcomers, of which I'm one.

[billvon 2,396]

>Once it did happen, it should have been moderated/edited, IMO.

There are thousands of posts a day on DZ.com, and the moderators (who all have regular jobs) can't read all the new posts. Please PM a moderator if you see a post that you think is questionable and we will look at it.

[skymama 35]

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Not to mention the PM's that came along with being attacked for wanting to simply buy a DVD

Moderators have no control over what is written in pm's. They are private for a reason. You can choose to block the sender and you can choose not to open them.

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Calling us stupid and ignorant calls for a similar response. I can take it just fine. Problem is, it shouldn't have happened in the first place. Once it did happen, it should have been moderated/edited, IMO.

I read over that thread 3 times just now and still cannot find an occurance where you were called "stupid" or "ignorant". It seems kind of strange that I can see the words that you chose to use and not theirs, but maybe it is just my old age fooling my eyes. By all means, please provide the post links in a pm for this ol' gal so I can take a look at them again.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[bob.dino 0]

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I don't think I'm a know-it-all so when people talk down to me it really puts my back up.

Tough. Learn to keep your ego in check and you'll learn a lot more. Some of the most crotchety folk around have the most information to offer. If you can let it slide a little, you can pick up some great information.

[bob.dino 0]

You got an agressive response from an overly-opinionated poster. I'm pretty sure I know exactly who it was too - he's normally quite full-on.

Best response? Relax. Ignore the post and within an hour or two you'll have a bundle of helpful responses filling the thread. React to it and you'll end up causing a flamefest which will ensure you don't get the information you're after...

[NWFlyer 2]

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If you can let it slide a little, you can pick up some great information.

So, so, so true. I like to direct newbies to dropzone.com to this post that I put up when I had maybe 15 or 20 jumps and I thought that dropzone.com was a hostile, scary place if you stepped out of Bonfire. Now, having been around this site and the sport I get it a little more, though I am now even more certain I don't have anything close to the perspective of folks that have been around the sport 5, 10, 20 or more years.

And I'm happy to say that several of the folks who posted responses to that thread have become good friends and mentors. They're not nearly as scary when you sit down, listen, and get to know them.

You get out of this sport what you put into it. Not every dropzone is going to be a warm, fuzzy place at first, but walk in with an open mind and an open heart and you'll find good people.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Dolph 0]

I doubt you come off as arrogant (and I've even met you in person). Your approach is one that actually works at times (not all times though).

It seems here in our country we have an issue with old time instructors adhering to the 45 degree rule. I've come across it multiple times in my short time in the sport.

Of course, you could just deal with the issue like my sisters boyfriend - no matter the circumstances, the amount of people listening, the experience of the person uttering the 45 degree words - loudly say "THAT'S BULLSHIT MAN!".

Not sure it solves anything and it may go contrary to AFF1s desire of a courteous community. But, he is right. And it usually spurs a conversation that has a wider audience than just two people.

The two different approaches illustrates nicely the wide range of personalities involved - on one side, Rasmack has a low key approach to such situations, attempting to resolve them in face to face talk. J on the other hand just won't stand hearing what he considers unsafe advice given in public and will object to it there and then, immediate feedback. Neither is wrong per se, and each approach is appropriate in different situations.

[Squeak 17]

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Because there is human nature involved. We get defensive. We hate to admit that we may be wrong. So we dig our heels in and we fight.

Because there is society involved. Society often tells us that it is someone else's fault, that we have someone else to blame. So we lash out at the other guy rather than looking inward.

Because this is the internet. It's very easy to get worked up at people when you don't have to look them in the eye.

Every single one of those is a personal choice not a societal choice,
People choose to not take responsbility nothing more or less. As it happens I have a great deal of trouble getting worked up over the internet.. geez it's the intertnet for crysake

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[NWFlyer 2]

Oh, I didn't say those were the *right* choices or ones that I make personally, but they are certainly ones that are reinforced by society (more so, perhaps, here in the U.S.)

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Tonto 1]

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It seems here in our country we have an issue with old time instructors adhering to the 45 degree rule.

[thread hijack]Will that BULLSHIT never go away? I train my AFF students on time across the ground. We have a chart in the plane with the delay in seconds depending on the upper winds. It's important - cos a Porter isn't fast, so if someone gets out after you, the chance of interference is high...

And I have these same former AFF students sprouting "45 Degree" rule bullshit to me before they get to 40 jumps. I'd love to catch the fucker teaching that shit.

t

It's the year of the Pig.