WFFC - What's going on?

[sangiro 4]

Hey,

Some of you may have seen me ask for the WFFC Vendors list a few time in this thread and this one. The reason why I wanted to know who's going is because I make my living in the skydiving industry. This used to be one of those few opportunities where you could go to a single venue and catch up with a lot of players and manufacturers. The PIA Symposium is another.

On Friday the WFFC published a list of confirmed vendors:

Quote

Miabay Jewelers
Pack'n Cathy
Rigging Solutions
SSK Industries, Inc.
Tony Suits
E G Sky Technologies

With all due respect to the vendors who are going, there are club level boogies that attract more vendors than this! What's going on? Where's PD, SunPath, Relative Workshop, Icarus, Precision, Mirage, Aerodyne, Jump Shack, Bird-man, Alti-2, HiPerUSA ? All these companies used to be fixtures at the convention. Maybe some of them will still go but it's pretty late in the game. There's less than 30 days left before the convention starts and the official vendors application form required proof of payment by May 1st...

I can ask the same question about the jump fleet. I look at the ad in Parachutist, and I compare it to this list. There are a lot helicoptors and stuff that needs to be confirmed to deliver on the promises in the ads.

If representatives from these companies read this I'd love to hear why you decided not to go. It looks like quite the exodus from this event. A lot of people (including myself) would like to see the WFFC succeed and continue to grow and deliver a fun time.

It's pretty obvious that something is broken though. It may be time for an open an honest discussion. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire.

Safe swoops
Sangiro

[bigway 4]

Ever since you started asking about the vendors I have been hoping you would stand up and ask this question.

There is a group of us that have paid around $1300 US each just for the flights there, we know we will have a good PARTY but that was not our reason for going. We though all the vendors would be there and we would be able to demo the new Icarus reserve, jump a few other canopies and learn the wingsuit.

To me the WFFC is sounding more like an event based around alcohol than it is skydiving.
For the last 4 years all i have ever wanted to do was go to the WFFC, now it seems it is in the dying stages and Alcohol seems to be the only attraction (apart from the perris jet).

I would like to know why the vendors are not coming wither as it looks like the vendors have got togethor and all said they do not want to be part of this or is it just coincidence that not one single big player in skydiving is their to promote their gear?
1000 plus skydivers and they are not their? There has to be a damn good reason for this.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[nicknitro71 0]

Even though I'll be there, the WFFC is not what it used to be, by any means.

Exotic aircrafts are a thing of the past. Now we just jump off planes that can be found within few hours of driving distance from almost anywhere. I understand getting permission to jump from “exotic” aircrafts is getting harder and harder and beyond the WFFC organizers but little effort is put into.

Jump tickets are not a bargain, just as or more expensive than any other place because both the WFFC and the aircraft operators have to make money.

Vendors have to pay an overpriced ticket to be there.

There are no international events to attract known names.

Attendance is low and this year will be the lowest ever.

The bottom line is that the WFFC does not offer anything than a medium/large DZ does not. Skydivers know that, skydivers stay home saving few bucks.

So what can be done to spice things up?

First reduce the jump prices: less income/ticket but it could be an incentive to attract more people hence probably more money at the end.

Reduce the fee for vendors.

Do the impossible to bring a greater verity of aircrafts.

International competition tours: swoop, RW, CRW, FF, I mean you name it.

Seminars, free instruction on a verity of disciplines, CRW camps, rigging and instructional courses, and why not, have the PIA symposium there every year.

There are many ways to improve the situation.

Bottom line, lack of will, just my 0.02.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[wmw999 2,121]

Could be that they need some fresh young blood to keep it going. Of course, fresh young blood is likely to take it in a different direction (which has to happen if it's going to stay popular), which the people who like it "the way it's always been" won't agree to.

So -- who out there in dropzone.com-land wants to go work their ass off to find a vision for WFFC?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[bbarnhouse 0]

Quote

First reduce the jump prices: less income/ticket but it could be an incentive to attract more people hence probably more money at the end.

Ok drop zone management 101Have you looked at the price of fuel?
In a perfect world, we would all like $16.00 jumps. However, ferrying aircraft is expensive and the operators DO NOT get paid for the ferry time or fuel. This equates roughly to about $6,000 per aircraft from this location just in ferry fuel. Then you have to look at the costs associtated with moving what is essentially an entire DZ. Lodging for the staff, meals, daily wage, vehicles to move aircraft.. and the biggy...fuel. The costs for fuel are up about $1.48 over last year per gallon. Each skydiver takes about 1.5 gallons per load.
In your statement you said businesses are in business to make money. By offering up that convention drop ticket prices, you are actaully suggesting that aircraft providers operate at a loss?
Would dropping prices in lift tickets at this juncture increase the volume of jumps? Perhaps...but not if attendance continues to drop as has been the trend over the past 4 years.
I will also add (because I know the question will arise.)How can drop zones offer discounted lift tickets at boogies then? The answer is simple...they don't have the overhead.

[bigway 4]

Apart from the party's and the drinking, what is special about this WFFC?

I ask this as a serious question, as i am not from the states and the only other boogie i have attended in the states is Eloy.
From all the other boogies i am reading about this seems very expensive(fair enough with Betsy's reply) but i do not see anything really that is special for skydiving, apart from the Jet if it turns up.

Another question... Will this boogie have at least 1000 jumpers there?


I feel a bit gutted that there are no vendors there after we spend so much money getting there and now it seems the big attraction of the WFFC (trying new things) is not available. I wish i had investigated this before rallying up a group to come on this thought that i thought it was about.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[marks 0]

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There are no international events to attract known names.

i think this is a big part of it.

plus the fact money is tight for alot of companies.

contact jim slaton and have him promote a swoop event.

contact eric darren with "team mandrin" to promote a vrw 4 way comp.

those two things alone will bring peeps.

[Remster 24]

Here's my thoughts....

Bit of background: I attented Quincy (still call it that lol) in 94 and 96. 94 Was arguable the most succesfull Convention in terms of number (or at least, was way up there with something like 4000 jumpers). I had about 75 jumps in 94, and around 300 in 96.

The tickets arent that expensive for 2006:$21 ea for a 10pack. Thats reasonable. The reg fees are highish at 50 and 60, but thats where the extra value of a giant boogie come in: the organisers need to deliver value for that fee.

And thats where things fall short. That value needs to compete with smaller boogies and events. For an event like this, I expect:

- Lots of vendors. The big names. With demos.
- Special aircrafts. Lots of Twins Otters and Tailgates just doesnt cut it as you find those at most boogies, event, and even largish DZs.
- Seminars by recognized leaders. I only see 2 in the calendar this year. Maybe they wont be well attended, but, it does tweak people's interest.
- The posisbility to do quality skydives. I see that Roger is still doing Concepts. Good. Whats happening on the freefly side?
- Parties: its not my bag anymore, but its an important aspect of the convention. Tho whom said that the convention is more about prtying now: I got news for ya: its always been a HUGE part of the event.

Now, I really think the vendor situation is a chicken and egg situation. Less people, less vendor, less people..... My understanding form talking to a few reps at boogies here and there was that the fees for WFFC were prohibitive considering the business they drummed up there. Its needs to change. Somehow, the conventions needs the vendors there.

As far as the organizing, for a boogie this size, there could be other options. We we nt to the Espace Boogie a few times too, and much much prefered the set up there: you get a 20way group assigned based on pre-registration, and thats your group. You jump all week with them. Its not what every one wants, so you make that part of your organiser set up and still have walk ups, but, for those of us who want to do quality dives, its awesome. Think a few Roger type groups.

Remster

[AggieDave 6]

With other incredible boogies like Skyfest going on, people from the other side of the country aren't going to drive all the way to WFFC when they can get the same kind of boogie with much less of a drive.

Have you seen the vender list for Skyfest?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Thanatos340 1]

The WFFC needs a make over and a full time year Round Promoter. It has gotten stale and definitely needs new blood and fresh ideas.

A promoter that travels around to other DZ`s and Boogies and Promotes the event like J does for Skyfest and Spence does for Dublin.

There are many false and misleading rumors about the WFFC being spread and someone needs to be out there to spread the truth. Newer jumpers are told that the WFFC is too dangerous and they shouldn’t go by experienced jumpers that remember Quincy or were at Rantoul when it was MUCH more crowded.

Specialty Planes and Free Beer is no longer enough to compete. Most Jumpers can find these thing closer to home. Rantoul needs to offer something more. With the mass exodus of the Vendors, that was the last thing that Rantoul had that couldn’t be found anywhere else.

How to save the WFFC??
1. Fulltime promoter that visits other boogies to promote the WFFC and speak directly with low time jumpers to make sure they are getting accurate information about the safty of the WFFC. Basically put a FACE on the WFFC that can take the message to the people.

2. A Make Over and New Image. Focus back on the GIANT Family Reunion aspect as well as the free load organizing. Rebrand Rantoul as the NEW WFFC. Make sure to get the message across that things are different.

3. Bring back the Official DVD. Not having an Official DVD the past few years, Rantoul have missed perhaps its greatest marketing opportunity. The DVD gets people hyped up about going. Each DVD is shown over and over again to many people and serves as a great promotional tool.

4. Host Competitions.. (You have no idea how much it pains me to say this.. But Marks is Right.. (Wow that hurt!!)). A VRW Comp or Swoop comp that is PROPERLY PROMOTED would definitely bring in more people. With the Power of the WFFC as the worlds largest Skydiving event, Perhaps Corporate Sponsorship for the Competitions could be found.

6. They are going to HAVE to lower the Vendor Fees. Make money off the registration fees and Jump tickets. The Vendor cannot pay $1,800 for a Tent and then staff it for 10 days and pay registration for their Staff. The vendors do draw people to the convention. Many people are not coming because the vendors will not be there.. Vendors are not coming because people will not be there. The WFFC needs to find a way to break this cycle.

7. The date change was a bad idea. Having The WFFC start the weekend after Skyfest make Jumpers have to choose one or the other. Right now Skyfest is marketed MUCH better and has the Buzz. People are choosing Skyfest. It is too late to change most of these things for this year.

In a nut shell, The convention needs to be marketed better. Right now it is trendy to bash the convention. I have had many different people that have NEVER been tell me about all the bad things they hear. They in turn tell others what they have heard and it steam rolls into what we have now.

The current Staff does a great job running the convention.. They just need better help Promoting the convention. Someone that understands Marketing and can get out to the other Boogies and Dropzones and get the massage to the people. This is a year round job. Not just a month or two before the convention starts, By that time people have already put in for Vacations and chosen the boogies they will be attending that summer.

When the people come back, The vendors will come back. If the vendors come back, More people will come back.

[PhreeZone 15]

The date change is a toss up. Now its competing against Skyfest, previouslly it was Lost Prarie or Summerfest it was going against. But with it some times going until August 14 you are now at the point where lots of schools are starting back up so all the parents can not attend anymore. Pushing it to July eliminates that but now has other events to contend with.

Ask around off line and not many people are aware of Skyfest but they are aware of the WFFC.

My thoughts as a previous WFFC camera person are that it needs to be brought back, but I doubt it will be like it was years ago any time soon.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AggieDave 6]

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Ask around off line and not many people are aware of Skyfest but they are aware of the WFFC.

In the north, right? In the southern US everyone seems to know about Skyfest. That was the point of my previous post. I remember 4-5 years ago that everyone went to WFFC, they'd take off from work, they'd get together and caravan up there and have a big deal about it. Now they're all doing that, but they're staying "local" and going to Skyfest. A boogie that has a lot of the same to offer for a much shorter drive.

On the flip side I don't see a lot of people from up north coming down to Skyfest, they've all said "well, that's a ways away, I'm going to WFFC instead."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[WFFC 1]

Hey all -
I am reading everything here and I will get everything answered. I aplogize if I don't have a response today. I'm sitting in an airport with a 102 degree fever on my way home to get better - I cut my current trip short due to this and honestly, I'm just not feeling well.
Also, I've only been back involved for a couple weeks and I was not involved from April of '05 up till recently. I've been brought back to inject some of the good vibes and assist in helping to bring back some of the specialty things the WFFC is know for.
Now, here's the 'rules' that I ask everyone to try to adhere too:
1. If you didn't hear it from me, it's probably not true.
2. Ask me - Otherwise it's total hearsay and speculation.
3. give me a day or 2 to medicate and get over this fever.

(please note that #3 means the most to me right now )

Also, when I say I'll have an answer, I will - if I say I'll post a response on Xday, Xday ends at midnight so please don't start trashing me at 6 AM.

OK...running to the gate.

-----
~~~Michael

[Tink1717 2]

The vendors I have talked to (PD, Relative Workshop, Sunrise, Square3) have all said the same thing:

The vendor fee are too high, rendering the event not cost effective to go. Unless and until the fee for vendor slots are made more affordable, then nothing will happen.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[bigway 4]

I vote free vendor fees at the WFFC 2006!!!!

Make it free and they will come. Do it now so they have time to get organized!!

Free Vendor slots!!!!

Free vendor slots!!!

Make it free and charge an extra $5 registration as it will get more people there.

The cost of a vendor slot seems 100% profitable anyway for the WFFC so who gives a shit, make it free so they come. You can't lose.
Tell them to bring their own tent.
More people should then come

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

Hey all -
I am reading everything here and I will get everything answered. I aplogize if I don't have a response today. I'm sitting in an airport with a 102 degree fever on my way home to get better - I cut my current trip short due to this and honestly, I'm just not feeling well.
Also, I've only been back involved for a couple weeks and I was not involved from April of '05 up till recently. I've been brought back to inject some of the good vibes and assist in helping to bring back some of the specialty things the WFFC is know for.
Now, here's the 'rules' that I ask everyone to try to adhere too:
1. If you didn't hear it from me, it's probably not true.
2. Ask me - Otherwise it's total hearsay and speculation.
3. give me a day or 2 to medicate and get over this fever.

(please note that #3 means the most to me right now )

Also, when I say I'll have an answer, I will - if I say I'll post a response on Xday, Xday ends at midnight so please don't start trashing me at 6 AM.

Don't forget the pop and don't hide it from me this year!

j


OK...running to the gate.

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Snowwhite 0]

Hey Sangiro,
thanks for asking again about the vendors.
This is a big issue for us, and one that we work on ALL year. Contrary to what people may think, this is a continuous magnum opus.
We have a great staff, and it's true that not as many of us get a chance to get out to as many dropzones as we would like, but I have to tell you, there are LOTS of us out there, but there are LOTS of dz's as well.

People are assuming that a list that they see on any given day is THE list, the FINAL list and the ONLY list.
Ask Michael, that is totally wrong. We have brought Michael in to help us diseminate information as soon as we get it. We are continuing to work on the WFFC every day of the year and will do so up to and through opening day this year, as we do every year.

Every one wants to know who is confirmed, before they confirm themselves. DUH! We have been asking people to confirm since BEFORE the beginning of the year, and some are just now starting to return phone calls. We are apparently not the only busy people in the world.

The list is growing every day.
We are still talking with vendors, jumpers, seminar presenters and even food vendors on a daily basis.

I will tell you this. Putting on a boogie this size is REALLY expensive. I MEAN HUGE!
Ask Jay, Ask Spence, ask Betsy Barnhouse, ask Don Kirlin.
The reason no one but Don ever puts on the WFFC is because of that HUGE expense.
Call a porta pottie place and ask how much 60 of those puppies run for 15 days, with service.
Ok, right em a check. Don't forget about the Load Organizing tents, the Loading tents, the Entertainment tent, the Food tent, the electricity bill the water bill, the satellite trailer bill.
Jump tickets for load organizers, ten bands, a couple hundred barrels of beer, who's gonna organize and control 150 volunteers? Do we have enough t-shirts for the volunteers, what about hats for the lo's. What if we have 6 days of rain, who's gonna pay for all of this stuff?
Whew!
I get tired just thinking of it, but luckily, we have a terrific staff who keep plugging away, answering phones, calling vendors, calling air plane owners, talking to the FAA, trying to get the most unusual jump fleet together to try and keep the reputation as the Worlds Largest and MOST DIVERSE boogie intact.
The problem with being the only boogie that has ever brought a 727 to jump at all, much less for what? 6 years, is that people expect that kind of service to continue.
When the FAA, and/or the insurance people tell us that just isn't gonna happen, we take it in the shorts.
I gotta tell ya, NO ONE was as dissappointed in the news as the staff at the WFFC. We want to continue to bring you the biggest, best, most diverse fleet and we still do. I do understand that many of you have access to Casas and Skyvans regularly, although not at the same time, especially not on the same day as Mike Mullins super king air, HALO jumps, balloons, an inverted bi-plane, helicopter(s) and this year, a glider.
When the vendors tell us that they want various amenities, we do all we can to accomodate them.
I was told just this week that our fee (and it WASN:T 1800 bucks!) wasn't the problem. The problem is 12,000 to 30,000 bucks worth of additional shipping/staffing/travelling in an economy where (according to USPA) skydiving membership has FALLEN for 5 years running.
I will continue to press for more and quicker information for our website, but it will continue to change until the Convention begins. We have a great conversation going on with some of the people you want to see at our Convention, but they aren't CONFIRMED yet. We'll let you know as soon as they are!
If you want to have the biggest and best boogie, you have to keep on keeping on.
Thank goodness, despite all of this, Don does.

skydiveTaylorville.org
[email protected]

[rickanderson 0]

thanks snow white for the update on the vendors. it sure is cool talking to them all when they are there but o'well if they are not thats ok. more beer for us!

[P.F. 0]

Seems like a lot of people people have a lot of ideas on how to make the WFFC better, but I don't see a line of people asking "how can I help?"

http://home.comcast.net/~thefishwrapper

[voodew1 0]

I would vneture to say the internet has caused some of the decreased attendance also

Now everyone knows of every boogie going on and where what kind of aircraft or organizer is, so instead of spending all the alotted funds to one week long trip to the WFFC they might hit 2 or three boogies more suited to their needs.

just a thought

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[Snowwhite 0]

Hey Rick, thanks for the good words! You too, PF and Voodoo.
Yea, if anyone wants to lend a hand, I'd be glad to work a couple hundred fewer hours this year, and I know about a dozen other staff members who would say the same thing.
Come on out and help! Betsy has it right when she says there is plenty to do.
It's nice to know that some people know and appreciate what we do, and come anyway! Ha!
I owe you guys one of Don's free beers!
In the meantime, I think I'll kick back and have one myself!

skydiveTaylorville.org
[email protected]

[BIGUN 1,053]

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The problem with being the only boogie that has ever brought a 727 to jump at all, much less for what? 6 years, is that people expect that kind of service to continue.

Yes, we do. It's supposed to be more than just another turbine boogie. It's called the "World Freefall Convention."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[goobersnuftda 0]

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***Yes, we do. It's supposed to be more than just another turbine boogie. It's called the "World Freefall Convention."

I absolutely agree. To completely turn the WFFC around, they really need to CONFIRM and GUARANTEE the Boeing 727 again. That would be the 6 month advertising blitz that would bring people back there again. The inverted biplane and the HALO are good but if the WFFC goes away, they will just move to SKYFEST where everyone will go to next. You have to be different, unique, a draw that makes you want to go there instead of staying in your own state to jump your local turbine at the same price with no regestration fee.

I loved the WFFC in 2003 (and spent lots of money there) but it looks like it is not even close today to what it used to look like. The vendors were awesome but as someone who went to trade shows regulary for my own company, $200 was fine but at $1,400 I said enough. We realize there is an advertising budget to get our name out there and pay for travel/accomodation and staff is fine but anything close to $1,000 and that was the last bit of adjetation. Realise, no more venders, no more customers. It is human nature really. Stupid cities still charge lots of money to plug the stupid parking meter downtown and hand out parking tickets. People stay away and park for free in the "big box" stores and yet city officials whine that the down town core is dying. Which makes more business sence and which one is prospering? Figure it out.

WFFC should be something special that comes around once a year. People should schedule their holidays around it so "the family" can meet at the reunion. Having a boogie with free beer, twin Otters, Casas and Skyvans doesn't cut it as the Olympic event it should be and used to be. Good luck WFFC. I hope you keep going for many, many years to come as long as you see the problems coming and deal with them before they are on your door step.

[ChrisL 2]

No offense guys, but if I was getting this kind of negative publicity for my big event I would be responding to peoples concerns immediately.

I wouldnt appoint one guy whose job it is to disseminate information about the event who then tells people that he will give them more information in a few days once he is feeling better.

I see people posting a lot and saying nothing other than how hard everyone is working but not actually addressing peoples concerns.

This LOOKS like obfuscation.

I'm not saying thats what it is. I'm just saying thats what it looks like.

No real answers have come out of any of the posts.

__

My mighty steed

[bigway 4]

AMEN.

I know of 7 of us that are very worried we have invested our holidays and more money than anyone from the states to get there. None of my questions have been answered.

I want to know the following...

How many people have registered.

The helicopters that have been advertised, will they be there.

I am going on the advertisments and that is why we in the uk have invested so much money. I will pissed if the advertising is wrong. 'Worlds largest boogie', 'helicopters' etc...

Time for answers, it is not our problem how much time goes in to this or how much it costs, We are even coming early to lend a hand where it is needed, but answers to the questions there need to be as we would feel tricked in to spending $1300 each on just getting there. That would not be fair.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.