Roads more dangerous than skydiving??????

[kevinwhelan 0]

In every post I read, when someone says that skydiving is save, they get jumped on.
The most common argument is that driving is as, or more dangerous, than skydiving.
Out of a sample of 50 skydivers and 50 nonskydivers that I picked at random. I just wrote a list of the first people that came to mind. More were hurt on the road.
any thoughts on this? has it any statistical relevance?

As a side note I think the argument of weather something is "safe" or not is a bit silly as it is relative it is like the question "is it far?"

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[Peej 0]

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The most common argument is that driving is as, or more dangerous, than skydiving.

As far as i'm concerned, less people skydive than drive cars, therefore your ratio of road accidents to skydive accidents is obviously going to be higher.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[kevinwhelan 0]

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less people skydive than drive cars

I know that, thats why I picked the same number of people that I know that do each

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[phoenixlpr 0]

But it does not make skydiving safer.

[kevinwhelan 0]

Safer than what?

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[agent_lead 0]

they callin me crazy/then you must be insane
cuz theres more risk to drivin in cars/than jumpin from planes..

-agent
off the forthcoming album "its about time"
www.myspace.com/teamalliance

--------------------------------------------
www.facebook.com/agentlead

[slotperfect 7]

Skydiving is not safe; there is a great deal of inherent risk. What makes skydiving different from other risky activities is the amount of effort taken to mitigate the risk. Through advances in equipment technology, modern training methods, and focusing on safety at all levels (beginning with each individual), the risk becomes acceptable to a large percentage of people.

The key is this: people have to see that there is some sort of life benefit on the other side of the assumed risk of making a skydive, and want it bad enough to bust out of their comfort zone to experience it. Being a facilitator for first timers to have that experience is one of the reasons I enjoy tandems and AFF so much.

Comparisons with driving are common, although I prefer to make comparisons with flying. They are regulated by the same agency (in this country, the FAA), and it is easy to relate FAA Certificated Riggers as being "Parachute Mechanics."

My advice is to be careful of statistics; both in using them and receiving them. From my experience statistics can easily be manipulated to benefit the viewpoint of the one who is presenting them.

Me? I have been jumping out of airplanes for almost 22 years. Skydiving continues to provide a life-forwarding energy for me, and has become normal to me and my family/friends. I have also gotten to share the joy of the sport with many of them. I continue to learn to this day, trying to make myself better, safer, and better able to teach others. In that regard, I hope I never "arrive."
Thanks for the great post.

Arrive Safely

John

[sburkart 0]

I know 4 people killed skydiving, 0 killed on the road. I couldn't tell you how many times I've witnessed soccer moms on cell phones doing 50 MPH on undivided highways, but somehow the vast majority of them are getting away with it. Makes me think of maybe getting a Nascar harness and fire extinguishers for my car, yes. Makes me think driving is more dangerous? Those 4 skydivers make me say no.

[wmw999 2,116]

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I know that, thats why I picked the same number of people that I know that do each

How much time do they spend doing each? I'll bet more of it is spent driving than skydiving.

Skydiving is not safe.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kevinwhelan 0]

Good point about the time spent doing each activity. But I wanted to consider each in terms of engaging in the activity or not.

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Skydiving is not safe.

This is the statement that I don't agree with.
Before everyone bites my head off let me explain.
In my job I often work at heights. If I am to climb a ladder to 30 ft I will first make sure that it is 'safe'.

Now working at 30 ft above the ground is not without danger so by definition it is not safe in the literal sense. But we normally apply the term 'safe' if all that can be done to mitigate danger is done.

I think that in these terms skydiving is safe. I do know the risks involved and am usually prepared to accept them. I have stayed on the ground when those risks got too high for me , wind, type of jump proposed ect.

So my definition of safe goes back to the ladder. If someone asked me "is climbing that ladder safe?" I would say yes
"is it without danger?" No
I just get the feeling that sometimes people change their meaning of 'safe' when they are talking about skydiving, Not that they perceive more risk than I do

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[slotperfect 7]

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But we normally apply the term 'safe' if all that can be done to mitigate danger is done.

When a skydiver is satisfied that he has done all he can to mitigate the risks involved in skydiving, and calls it "safe" in whatever context, it can lead to complacency - forgetting that skydiving can kill you even if you do everything right. Complacency is very dangerous - it has and will continue to kill people in this sport.

On the other hand, if a skydiver has done everything he can to mitigate the risk, but continues to have respect for the danger - knowing the activity can still kill him - his awareness of the risk and the need for emphasis on safety stays at the top of his skydiving task list. Skydivers like that will likely never get complacent.

I'll use another analogy - a loaded gun. In your frame of reference, the loaded gun is "safe" as long as the safety is on. That can lead to complacency as well. My own guns, unloaded and locked up with the ammo stored in a separate location, can still kill people. In my frame of reference, I treat every gun with respect to that danger - I point it away from people and clear it every time I pick it up.

I agree with Wendy that skydiving is dangerous. Keeping that fact in the front of my skydiving brain has kept me alive for a long time.

Arrive Safely

John

[MotherGoose 0]

If I could just add my "opinion". Skydiving has risks, like crossing a busy street has risks. Skydiving, on the other hand, has precautions and a level of safety awareness "available" to its participants, that rivals almost every other sport or activity out there. If we all followed the rules and did everything by the book like we are supposed to, skydiving fatalities would be a fraction of what they are . Skydivers make skydiving dangerous.

Does this sound familiar . . . jump from a plane, land, run to the packing mats, pack as fast as you can, don't inspect your rig, throw it on, run to the plane, go up, jump. land, repeat . . . and repeat . . . etc. This is only a generalization, but a lot of skydivers become complacent as they gain experience. Its a natural human reaction, to become a little self-righteous when you've become proficient in a certain activity, only with skydiving . . . mistake = death (most of the time)

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[squirrel 0]

this was posted a while back...

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/skydiving8.htm

Edited by slotperfect to make the link clicky.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[MotherGoose 0]

I remember reading that when it first came out . . . its an excellent article and comparison of the dangers of driving vs. skydiving.

Anyhow, if you want to live forever . . . buy a bubble or something . . .

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[slotperfect 7]

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Skydiving, on the other hand, has precautions and a level of safety awareness "available" to its participants, that rivals almost every other sport or activity out there.

Very well stated.

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If we all followed the rules and did everything by the book like we are supposed to, skydiving fatalities would be a fraction of what they are.

I agree with that one as well, to a point. Pushing limits and going places in the sport where no one has gone before has value as well, but the same attitudes toward mitigating risk must be applied.

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Skydivers make skydiving dangerous.

Here we disagree. Skydiving is dangerous in itself - in the big scheme of things, skydivers make it less dangerous. Advances in safety through better gear and better training, along with the "rules" of a particular aero club all come from skydivers who care about making the sport safer. There is a very good conversation on that subject in this post. Some people may even become safer skydivers as a result of this thread.

Arrive Safely

John

[wmw999 2,116]

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Now working at 30 ft above the ground is not without danger so by definition it is not safe in the literal sense. But we normally apply the term 'safe' if all that can be done to mitigate danger is done.

Mitigating and eliminating risks are two different things. Mitigated risks must be reviewed regularly, to ensure that the mitigations are still valid and still enforced.

We can't eliminate the risks in skydiving. We can mitigate them, but one risk is then treating them as though they were eliminated (e.g. AADs). We have to continually keep in mind that the risks are still there. We've built a fence around our deadly lion, but now we have to maintain the fence, in addition to being aware that the lion is still there.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kevinwhelan 0]

I couldn't agree more with you, that not keeping the dangers in mind can cause skydiving, or for that matter almost any activity, to become unsafe.

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I'll use another analogy - a loaded gun. In your frame of reference, the loaded gun is "safe" as long as the safety is on.

No because not everything that can be done has been done.

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My own guns, unloaded and locked up with the ammo stored in a separate location, can still kill people. In my frame of reference, I treat every gun with respect to that danger - I point it away from people and clear it every time I pick it up.

This I would call safe
What would you call safe?

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I agree with Wendy that skydiving is dangerous.

So do I. But I don't think that the word safe has no place in a conversation about Skydiving

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[MotherGoose 0]

We are on the same page here, but the point I am aiming at is this . . . if someone gets hopped up on coke or drunk and goes for a jump and the jump kills them, does that make skydiving dangerous ?? That's an extreme example, but its what I mean when I say skydivers make skydiving dangerous. Of course skydivers have advanced the sport, and yes there have been actual "accidents". But what about the fatalities caused by poor judgement or bad decisions? Those, the sport could do without. Kinda like drinking and driving. Alcohol doesn't make driving dangerous, until you mix the two.

You think you understand the situation, but what you don't understand, is that the situation just changed.

[kevinwhelan 0]

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We can't eliminate the risks in skydiving. We can mitigate them, but one risk is then treating them as though they were eliminated (e.g. AADs). We have to continually keep in mind that the risks are still there. We've built a fence around our deadly lion, but now we have to maintain the fence, in addition to being aware that the lion is still there.

I totally agree with you. The whole thing is just semantics.
But I don't think its correct that every time someone uses the word Safe on these forums that we should assume that they don't understand the risks involved.

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[slotperfect 7]

I guess the point is that saying skydiving is "safe" in a broad sense can lead to a gross misunderstanding of the risks involved and deadly complacency. Even worse, in my opinion is considering skydiving "safe enough."

When I was a Golden Knight, we were training at Raeford when the mother of a young man going up for his first tandem asked me "this is safe, right?" She wanted some sort of warm blanket effect from someone with experience to justify in her mind that her son was going to be OK. I took the time to explain to her that skydiving is inherently dangerous, but that we go to great effort to make it as safe as possible. She understood completely. The jump went great, and everyone came away with a favorable impression of skydiving as a sport.

Back to the gun analogy - even though my guns are unloaded and locked up with the ammo stored somewhere else, I do not consider them safe in a broad sense. No matter what I do, short of permanently disabling them so they will not fire ever again, my guns can still kill people. That attitude toward guns in general keeps me from accidentally shooting myself or someone else.

The word "safe" does indeed have a place in conversations about skydiving - a very important place at that. We just need to be careful where we put it.

Arrive Safely

John

[kevinwhelan 0]

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I guess the point is that saying skydiving is "safe" in a broad sense can lead to a gross misunderstanding of the risks involved and deadly complacency. Even worse, in my opinion is considering skydiving "safe enough."

This I agree with completely It would be stupid to say it was safe to someone thinking about starting in the sport.

But as I said in reply to wendy , in a conversation between skydivers saying it is safe dose not mean you don't understand the risks. I have often hear people say that certain things would make a jump unsafe implying that without that it is safe. This is not to say that the jump would then be without risk. But that safety is given the highest priority.
Like when a student asks his instructor " is it safe for me to jump this canopy" He is not asking will I be jumping without risk

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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this was posted a while back...

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/skydiving8.htm

Edited by slotperfect to make the link clicky.

That analysis is seriously flawed on so many levels.

[billvon 2,380]

So far I've known 12 people killed skydiving. All but 1 was a skydiver. (The 1 was a non-skydiving pilot killed during jump operations.) 6-8 received crippling injuries (i.e. resulting in amputations, coma, reconstructive surgery, "never able to walk again" etc.) I know 1 person killed driving, 2 crippled to some degree. (Note that the above are people I have actually met and talked to, not people I've just heard about.)

[Fast 0]

To the end of time people will continue to postulate that Driving is more dangerous than skydiving and as far as things are at this point. That isn't true and probally will never be true.

The sheer numbers of people on the road make the number of people skydiving look like a handfull of sand at daytona beach (insignificant)

Saftey advances in cars come at a much faster rate than they do in skydiving and probally always will as well.

Most of the people on this forum who have gotten over the "skydiving is safer than driving" argument have done so because they were able to come to the simple realization of why people say this. They want to feel good. They want to feel like it won't be their turn to die next. Skydiving can and will kill you if you give it even the smallest of oppertunities.

In my opinion, there is nothing safe about skydiving, other than not doing it. I willfully choose to accept the inherent risk of participating in this activity cause I think its fun and quite frankly nothing else in life has come close to topping it yet.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[AndyMan 7]

My entire life I've known one person killed driving, and another killed riding his bike in traffic.

In the last 4 years I've personally known 3 killed skydiving, and a handfull with serious life threatening injuries.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.