50 bucks a jump for coahcing?

[diverdriver 5]

You all need to be paying your pilots more if you can afford 50 bucks a jump to hear "you need to stick your legs out more".

I don't think jump pilots know how much money is exchanged at a DZ. They should demand their fair share. They have the most responsibility on any lift. They are responsible for ALL the lives on the flight. The pilot has the most to lose in a violation.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[slug 1]

Hi Diverdriver

Get back in the airplane and drive

Have you seen pilot salaries increase over the years, or is the pay a function of the law of supply and demand?

Are some pilots still willing to fly just to build up hr's. IMO flying for hr's is not a good thing, we rather fly with a pro who already knows what to do if the rubber band breaks.

A twin otter can carry 20 jumpers and get 4 lifts/hr. would $.50 per head be to much for a DZO to pay a pilot? Would $40/hr be ok

BTW Not a pilot

R.I.P.

[Keith 0]

How much do jump pilots make? I've heard it's around $6 a load.

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[NickDG 23]

You can't see me. But I'm standing on my coffee table with a cardboard sign that’s say UNION!

Pilots and Instructors are the underpaid in this sport and the reason is our own fault. There is always someone in the wings who'll do the job for peanuts, just to get the job and high time pilots and high time Instructors are what the sport needs.

I peeked into a first jump course underway at a local DZ this week and the Instructor was the youngest person in the room. I listened for a few moments and could see his class wasn't paying attention – as his monotonous delivery was duly covering everything, but in route fashion, and there was no feeling . . .

A lot of dealing with students, if you're paying attention, is they are all different and sometimes need unusual methods to reach them. A kid with a still wet Instructor ticket in his back pocket can't do that. And fifteen years later –when he's seen it all, and can handle it all – he's gone because now as a thirty something with a family it's time to get serious about making a living.

The USPA has ripped the guts out of the Instructor corps with all the changes they've implemented in order to fix what wasn't broke in the first place. Ask someone in my generation the name of their first jump Instructor and even though it's over thirty years ago 99% percent of the time they'll not only remember him, they can still remember his voice and many of the lessons delivered. Ask a 20-year who their first jump instructor was from just six months ago and you get a blank look – The FJC has become just another hurdle to get past, like filling out the waiver . . .

I know not all DZOs are doing well – but some are, and I know the above is not the case at all drop zones, but at a lot of the bigger ones it is. But until a group of Instructors (somewhere) demand a raise, and show up on a Saturday morning with picket signs instead of rigs, and their "brother" Instructors don't swoop in on their slots (and if we support the pilots and the pilots support us) we may change things.

There has always been a conflict of interest between DZOs and Instructors. You can actually work for a DZO who holds no instructional ratings, but by virtue of position he out ranks you. Go to him and say the winds are too high, or this piece of gear needs replacement, or this or that person shouldn't jump, and you do it too many times, and you're going to get shown the door.

And how is someone who's been an Instructor for twenty years have no rank over an Instructor who's been so rated for a month? Where are the Senior Instructors and Master Instructors? Well - the Senior Instructors are doing the bulk of the teaching these days and the Master Instructors are all doing something else, and usually and sadly, it's something off the drop zone.

NickD BASE 194

[Keith 0]

Although I appreciated your post Norma Rae, you didn't answer my question. How much to jump pilots make?

Keith

Don't Fuck with me Keith - J. Mandeville

[michalm21 0]

I'm this 20 something and I dont think I will ever forget my instructors. They are awesome
But I'm not a usual John Smith so I will go now....

[NickDG 23]

Sorry, but I didn't set out to answer your question . . .

NickD BASE 194

[slug 1]

Hi Nick

Sorry but I have to agree with you

"Pilots and Instructors are the underpaid in this sport and the reason is our own fault. There is always someone in the wings who'll do the job for peanuts, just to get the job"

We talked to some pro musicans that were having the same problem getting booked into clubs

"The USPA has ripped the guts out of the Instructor corps with all the changes they've implemented in order to fix what wasn't broke in the first place."

USPA's name needs to be changed to USDZO. The DZO's got exactly what they wanted the jumpers didn't.

"I know not all DZOs are doing well – but some are, and I know the above is not the case at all drop zones, but at a lot of the bigger ones it is"

It doesn't take a big DZ to do Tandems, AFF, coach & rent gear (at $25 a pop). If a DZO can't make it then they have way to much "overhead" or are in a saturated market.

"There has always been a conflict of interest between DZOs and Instructors. You can actually work for a DZO who holds no instructional ratings, but by virtue of position he out ranks you. Go to him and say the winds are too high, or this piece of gear needs replacement, or this or that person shouldn't jump, and you do it too many times, and you're going to get shown the door. "

That goes both ways of the DZO asks to many times or asks someone else if you won't. It is what it is and may be time to leave or just jump for fun.

As long as there is fresh meat on the table (the DZO has a freezer) the DZO isn't going to listen

R.I.P.

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Unionize!!!

""you need to stick your legs out more". "

Why not do both - yell before they leave the plane, "Stick your legs out." and demand $50 when you get on the ground. Or tell the DZO that you'll be flying the plane to jump run and you'll will be doing a coach jump once there - since he (the DZO) is only paying you half what he should be - the plane should be able to land itself, since he's obviously not paying you to do it.


Then there's the thought, do you want your life for the first couple k feet to be dependant on the lowest paid s.o.b. on the plane.

[airtwardo 6]

The USPA has ripped the guts out of the Instructor corps with all the changes they've implemented in order to fix what wasn't broke in the first place.

***

One point I'd like to make Nick~
The reason the USPA ripped the guts out, was to attempt to fix a problem that was becoming more and more apparent and needed a band aid of some sort.

That problem is basically what you are talking about...

Experienced Instructor retention.

If you were to study the overall numbers, not only has the membership of the USPA been declining, but so has the number of folks re-upping their credentials...no doubt for the very reasons you spotlight here.


And to Driverdriver...I hear ya !

I always wondered why a guy with a million dollar airplane and 20 peoples lives in their hands...could be making 7-11 clerk wages???

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Skyliber 0]

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You all need to be paying your pilots more if you can afford 50 bucks a jump to hear "you need to stick your legs out more".

I'm studying to be pilot and skydiver. I would like to think that the pilots are paid well, not that I intend to fly the airplane with a load of skydivers i would rather jump out of it, but they should be paid fairly.

If i had a business, I would suck as a business man, but my employees would love me, no doubt.

-=+ Skyliber, Disynthegrate, & Nucleaire +=-

[NickDG 23]

I think one thing we could do right now is like a DZ has a Chief Instructor, Chief Pilot, etc, the USPA should have an Instructor Czar with the power to guide both new and old teachers in the field. If after a two year term he hasn't standardized the training, gotten rid of the bad apples, and returned a bit of respect and power to the profession, we'll get rid of him too.

When a Coach gets $50 and an AFF Instructor gets $25 there is something really wrong with this sport . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Ron 7]

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I don't think jump pilots know how much money is exchanged at a DZ. They should demand their fair share. They have the most responsibility on any lift. They are responsible for ALL the lives on the flight. The pilot has the most to lose in a violation.

The pilot is also earning hours as compensation. Hours that can earn them a big time job later. An AFF guy, Tandem guy, or coach is not getting that same compensation. This is an old problem in flying. You work for shit pay till you make it. Show me one AFF instructor that eventually could get a 200,000 a year job because he did all those AFFs.

And as a coach I am not sure you really know all that a coach does if you think all they do is tell students to stick their legs out, to be honest. Or how much money they spent to be able to charge.

The same could be said of pilots, I mean all they do is fly right?

...BTW I have never charged 50 bucks a jump, but let the market decide the rate.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diverdriver 5]

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I don't think jump pilots know how much money is exchanged at a DZ. They should demand their fair share. They have the most responsibility on any lift. They are responsible for ALL the lives on the flight. The pilot has the most to lose in a violation.

The pilot is also earning hours as compensation. Hours that can earn them a big time job later. An AFF guy, Tandem guy, or coach is not getting that same compensation. This is an old problem in flying. You work for shit pay till you make it. Show me one AFF instructor that eventually could get a 200,000 a year job because he did all those AFFs.

And as a coach I am not sure you really know all that a coach does if you think all they do is tell students to stick their legs out, to be honest. Or how much money they spent to be able to charge.

The same could be said of pilots, I mean all they do is fly right?

...BTW I have never charged 50 bucks a jump, but let the market decide the rate.

Hey Ron,

There is no "big time" in the airlines anymore. The market is saturated and there are no more pensions or 200K a year. It's all gone. There are many pilots who will retire as a regional pilot and guess what, they are underpaid for what they do too. I'm gone from home more than half the month. The days of "I only work 10 days a month and get paid 250K" are gone, probably forever. Those precious hours at the DZ don't get you anywhere anymore unless you plan on being at the DZ for the next 4 years and then you have a problem with qualifying for the ATP when you don't have instrument or cross country time. I hope I open the eyes of some diver drivers out there. Be educated on what is going on with the industry.

What I'm getting at is there seems to be a huge disparity in pay for roles on a DZ. If there truly are people getting 50 bucks per coach jump (after the student course is done and before the A is aquired) then pilots need to stand up and demand more money because this is BS.

And by the way, I used to coach people too and I never charged them for my time. Several of them are now on a competing 4 way team and it's cool to see them now coaching others coming in.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[bigairnut 0]

Ron hit the nail on the head. It is supply and demand. We live in a market economy. You don't like what you get paid, go do something else. Nobody forced you to be a pilot, tandem instructor, or whatever. I love to fly but I don't do it for a living because I cannot earn enough money to pay for all my hobbies. I guess I don't love it THAT MUCH. You can talk all you want about getting paid your "fair share" but the reality is that if you are doing it for what you are being paid, then by definition you ARE getting your fair share, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it.

[diverdriver 5]

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Ron hit the nail on the head. It is supply and demand. We live in a market economy. You don't like what you get paid, go do something else. Nobody forced you to be a pilot, tandem instructor, or whatever. I love to fly but I don't do it for a living because I cannot earn enough money to pay for all my hobbies. I guess I don't love it THAT MUCH. You can talk all you want about getting paid your "fair share" but the reality is that if you are doing it for what you are being paid, then by definition you ARE getting your fair share, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it.

That is the most bogus arguement ever. I bet you say to people who discent to the governement "love it or leave it!" I love flying. I also recognize what low pay in the jumping world does. Many qualified pilots with a professional attitude DO NOT come to the industry so we are left with people who may not act in your best interest (safety) as they are just slaves to the system. What do you want? You get what you pay for and this industry has continually shown they do not care that the accident rate is abismal. People are more concerned with paying 50 bucks a jump extra for coaching when your 182 pilot makes 5 bucks a load or a twin otter pilot makes 10 bucks a load.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[bigairnut 0]

Chris, c'mon, there is a big difference between arguing that a market economy generally functions as intended vs. arguing that you should leave the country if you don't like the way the government is running it. Addressing the latter point, although I do in fact have the "love it or leave it" attitude, I also believe that you don't have to love everything and if you don't then you have the power to change it through your vote. You wanna burn the flag? I will hate you personally but I respect the right that you have to do so. The "vote" is the only valid point of your analogy. When you pay, or don't pay, $50 for a coach jump...you are "voting" for what is important to you. If I choose to pay $50 for a coach jump while getting on a plane with a low hour pilot, that is my choice (not saying I would personally do that, just making a point). If many are willing to do that, then we have a market economy that is functioning properly...that is to say that the aggregate public purchasing decisions are dictating the result. I don't dispute the fact that qualified pilots are important to the safe operation of a drop zone, but I have the choice to get on that plane or not. If fewer people got on that plane and fewer people paid $50 for a coach jump, guess what? Things would change. That's how it works.

[Ron 7]

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There is no "big time" in the airlines anymore. The market is saturated and there are no more pensions or 200K a year

I just met a guy that came on as a 727 3rd seat and before he could start he was right seat on the MD10.

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There are many pilots who will retire as a regional pilot and guess what, they are underpaid for what they do too.

So all pilots are underpaid? Everyone thinks they are underpaid. It might have to do with the airline industry as a whole sucking. You can not get blood from a stone.

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The days of "I only work 10 days a month and get paid 250K" are gone, probably forever.

Its an adjustment. I have friends that retired with more than I make a year. Thats life. I do not bemoan a pilot for making 250,000 a year for working 10 days (And they are still out there, I know a few).

I say let the market decide the pay rates. If you can get 200,000 for 10 days work you would. Why bitch about a guy making 50 bucks on a jump? Both earned the right to do that.

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Those precious hours at the DZ don't get you anywhere anymore unless you plan on being at the DZ for the next 4 years and then you have a problem with qualifying for the ATP when you don't have instrument or cross country time

Right, but 4 years at the DZ as an AAF, Tandem, or coach gets you NOTHING that will help anywhere else.

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What I'm getting at is there seems to be a huge disparity in pay for roles on a DZ. If there truly are people getting 50 bucks per coach jump (after the student course is done and before the A is aquired) then pilots need to stand up and demand more money because this is BS.

A buddy once told me, "If you think you are underpaid, go try and get a new job for more money. If you do, then you were, if not, then you were not." The thing is with aviation, and you know this better than me, is that if you don't want to fly Otters for the DZ, someone else is willing right behind you. We do not have a shortage of people wanting to fly for a living even if that living sucks.

The pilot market sucks, but so does the professional skydiver market. I know plenty of DZ pilots that make more than AFF Instructors.

Accross the market skydiving and flying pay terrible. Why do you think it is only pilots?

Feel free to ask for more money, but don't be surprized if you get replaced. The industry as a whole is not doing well. I have seen the reduction in fun jumpers. Demanding more money will only rasie jump prices and lower demand for tickets and pilots and then DZ's.

I'd love to get 100.00 an AFF jump. But I would starve waiting for the work.

As for coaching. I don't charge much at all. I'm a cheap bastard and I used to not even charge. I found unless I charge I don't seem to get the students attention. Even then I still do free days of coaching ect.

But I don't complain about the guy that makes more than I do...It might be all the job they have.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[airtwardo 6]

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Ron hit the nail on the head. It is supply and demand. We live in a market economy. You don't like what you get paid, go do something else. Nobody forced you to be a pilot, tandem instructor, or whatever. I love to fly but I don't do it for a living because I cannot earn enough money to pay for all my hobbies. I guess I don't love it THAT MUCH. You can talk all you want about getting paid your "fair share" but the reality is that if you are doing it for what you are being paid, then by definition you ARE getting your fair share, otherwise you wouldn't be doing it.

***

OR....Mr.'Nut'
He could be doing it because unlike you...he DOES love it!

In fact...I even know people that RENT airplanes so they can fly...no, really, they love it so much they pay.

What Chris says about the airline industry is dead on. and it's a shame. The amount of initial training and commitment required is second only to the responsibility involved.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[bigairnut 0]

Airtwardo, that is precisely part of my point. While it appears diverdriver does not love it so much that he would fly skydivers for what he considers to be low pay simply for the fun of it, it seems that there are many others who have the opposite attitude. Whether they do it because they enjoy it, because it helps them build hours, or for whatever reason, there doesn't seem to be a shortage. If pay were that big of an issue, there would most certainly be a shortage and pay would increase accordingly. I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but that's the way a market economy works. And while smaller DZ's surely have less qualified pilots than larger DZ's, the fact is that they all have to have some minimum number of hours and rating for the plane they fly, so as a skydiver I'm not all that concerned with the danger that diverdriver seems to imply goes hand in hand with what he perceives to be low pay.

[diverdriver 5]

One: I would never burn the flag. Not that you implied that I would... just saying.

Two: I wanted to bring people's attention to this obvious disparity in DZ pay. Many have been justifying 50 dollar pay for coach jumps yet I see few championing the pilots that get you to altitude so you can make that 50 dollar a jump pay. And the pilot has much more safety related duties than a coach.

Am I saying that people shouldn't make 50 dollars a jump to coach? No. Never said that. What I DID say is that if the market will bare this type of revenue demand then pilots should wise up and collectively demand more. The money is obviously out there. They just have to ask for it. And maybe many didn't think to ask until I spoke up. A ground swell needs to start somewhere. The pay for jump pilots has been stagnant for almost 15 years or more. What new pilots don't know is the history. I happen to know a little history. With education people might feel different about going to work for 5 bucks a load since that prescious time jumpers throw up in the pilots face when they do ask for more ain't worth what it used to be. You do not move on like before.

There is no comparison to a professional skydiver to a DZ pilot. The commerical DZ pilot will have spent at least 15,000 to 20,000 to get the certificates in order to do the job. What did the AFF instructor pay? What did the TM pay? We all know it isn't that much. Yet, they get paid WAY more per load than the pilot. An AFF JM has much more prep work to do than just go up and jump and that time is valuable. What I'm getting at is this 50 bucks for a coach jump later on. So, if it's true people are getting 50 bucks a jump for coaching then the pilots need to let their voices be heard and say some pay needs to come our way.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[bob.dino 0]

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There is no comparison to a professional skydiver to a DZ pilot. The commerical DZ pilot will have spent at least 15,000 to 20,000 to get the certificates in order to do the job. What did the AFF instructor pay? What did the TM pay? We all know it isn't that much.

I agree with much of what you say, but this rings false. 500 jumps @ $20/jump is $10k. Add student jumps, a rig or two, and other miscellaneous expenses, and I think you'll find that skydiving instructors are paying at least $15-20k to get their ratings.

[airtwardo 6]

so as a skydiver I'm not all that concerned with the danger that diverdriver seems to imply goes hand in hand with what he perceives to be low pay.



***

I wasn't either...until April 22 1992.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[flyangel2 2]

If all the DZ employees demanded a raise, the DZO would have to raise the price of jump tickets

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[bigairnut 0]

Airtwardo, pardon my ignorance, but I do not know what happened in April 1992. But my guess is it involves an airplane accident. Assuming that's the case, I doubt the accident was caused by low pay. More likely it was caused by an inexperienced pilot who shouldn't have been flying regardless of what he was being paid.

Chris, thanks for the comments. I am all for pilots trying their damndest to get paid better. If pilots demand more money and the DZO's agree and it causes an increase in jump ticket prices, we'll see what the market will bear. I, for one, would be happy to pay a little more, but that's because I can afford it and safety is important to me. I can't speak for everyone. And btw, I'm glad you would not burn the flag.

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