propilot 0 #76 July 10, 2006 Jesus, this is retarded. You are imposible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #77 July 10, 2006 ...No, something else is causing them to quit and they are using this as an excuse. I believe they are quiting because of the dumb canopy collisions happening with greater regularity. I believe they are quiting because of the stupid jump plane crashes every year. I believe that they see people who are supposed to be in charge turn a blind eye to a problem jumper who then becomes a crater or causes someones else to be a crater. I believe that people get tired of seeing jumpers disregard people's safety when they cut their legs off hitting a bridge on a stunt in front of little kids. Etc.... You get my point. They don't know where the next yahoo is coming from and they don't want to be the next target.... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Hmmm.... Interesting points, but I have to wonder if ANYBODY who was otherwise enjoying the sport regularly read about an accident and said "That's it, I'm done!" While over the years I've seen a handful of questionable acts, I've rarely seen anything that would constitute a blatant disregard for safety. (At least, that is, until small high performance canopies became a regular part of DZ life.) And even so, I've almost never actually witnessed anyone flying one of these in a careless manner. Your point about canopy collisions is a good one. Most of the accidents we read about, such as the bridge collision or the small spinning experimental main, are situations in which most of us would never find ourselves, and thus don't have to worry about becoming involved. But getting struck by someone else while "routinely" landing is something that could happen to anybody, regardless of experience or attention to detail. It seems our choice is to accept a sport which, because of its human imperfections, can be described as "very dangerous" or we must endure another orgy of legislation, regulation, and micro-management so it can then be described as "safe" and "mainstream." ...They paid 150-180 bucks to come out and do their first tandem then probably spent a lot to get certified and equipped. And 15 dollars more a day caused them to quit jumping all together? Sorry, I'm not buying it even if they are saying it. There is something more at work here. And it is the total lack of collective safety minded focus in this industry. We're still light years behind on canopy control education MANDATORY for anyone getting a new canopy off student status... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I thought basic canopy control was a part of the student training process, but have been surprised a few times over the years. Example: I was trained on rounds. Later, while learning to fly squares, I instictively learned to do slow, flat turns. This was never discussed before; It just seemed like a good idea at the time. I was maneuvering for the peas, and knew I had to fly slowly (while still maintaining enough airspeed to avoid a stall.) Later in life I read of suggestions that students be taught the concept of flat turns. Why wasn't this being done already? Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #78 July 10, 2006 Of course he is impossible, always has been always will be. But the fact remains he brought up some issues that you have avoided addressing. Just how long did you fly jumpers? How many hours in turbine twins did you have when you started flying jumpers and how many now? It’s a 2 way street, DZO’s use pilots and pilots use DZO’s. They get cheap pilots and pilots get cheap hours. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #79 July 10, 2006 QuoteWhile over the years I've seen a handful of questionable acts, I've rarely seen anything that would constitute a blatant disregard for safety I find this hard to believe. I can't remember many days at the DZ in 30 years that I did not see some turd do something that was just plain dangerous to himself or others. Of course they always thought the rules were for the other guy not them.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propilot 0 #80 July 10, 2006 QuoteOf course he is impossible, always has been always will be. But the fact remains he brought up some issues that you have avoided addressing. Just how long did you fly jumpers? How many hours in turbine twins did you have when you started flying jumpers and how many now? It’s a 2 way street, DZO’s use pilots and pilots use DZO’s. They get cheap pilots and pilots get cheap hours. Your preaching to the chior. Was the line where I said "to those of you who talk about a market economy... you are right...goodbye" typed in invisible letters? I understand the situation completely. I flew jumpers for 1.5 years. I had 1000 hours when I started flying turbines I have 1500 now. I have 350 turbine hours. What is your point? Yes I benefited, I never said I didnt. All im saying is that jumpers pay for what they get. Also, most jumpers have no idea how ill-trained and experinced their new turbine jump pilots are (by and large). Im not making any conclusions. I didnt end my post with "so you should pay pilots more and instructors less". Stop acting like I did. My post in written in black and white there are no hidden meanings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akjmpplt 0 #81 July 10, 2006 Quote The pilot is also earning hours as compensation. Hours that can earn them a big time job later. BS. My "big time job" is as a jump pilot. It took a lot of "hours" that I paid for to get into the pilot seat of the jump plane. Anyone want to compensate me for that time? SmugMug Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #82 July 10, 2006 QuoteQuote The pilot is also earning hours as compensation. Hours that can earn them a big time job later. BS. My "big time job" is as a jump pilot. It took a lot of "hours" that I paid for to get into the pilot seat of the jump plane. Anyone want to compensate me for that time? If you don't like your job, or your pay, get a new one. Most people don't and won't have the pleasure of getting rich doing what they really love. If you love to fly, well, you now know, pilots don't make alot of money (compared to what - I haven't figured that out). I know I could go do what I really love, but I also know it doesn't pay as well as what I do. You make your bed... jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #83 July 10, 2006 Funney thing about Unions... in EVERY instance I've seen or read about, prior to Unions the bosses SCREWED their employees as hard as they could, with in the law (sometimes in the grey area, or blatently in the red of the law) And the there were UNIONS And for a time Unions fought to get their members a less screwed deal, until they finnally got what could be considered a "fair deal" And then the Unions began to do the Screwing, the union officers screwed the union members, the unions screwed the Bosses and the companies, and many companies folded. In EVERY case those who have the power abuse it. Yay pilots union, pilots paid more = DZO gets less/club gets less to cover other expenses, or jump tickets go up. Push the price up too far and fewer jumps get made, and pilots loose their jobs... I for one do think about money, I'd jump more if I could afford it, I'll jump less if prices go up not because I want to jump less but because for my limited income there comes a point .... (point already covered by many posts) Sorry I hope this is not too far off topic, I just don't agree with the "socialist" solution any more than I feel the "market" solution is best (or even real, we d not have a free market, there are regulations, there are rules, and they are NOT only dictated by cash transactions) Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #84 July 10, 2006 QuoteBS. My "big time job" is as a jump pilot. It took a lot of "hours" that I paid for to get into the pilot seat of the jump plane. Anyone want to compensate me for that time? Sure as soon as you find a way for me to get paid for all those hours of school I did. What you paid to get into the seat is your business, and it is the cost of doing what you choose to do. Just like the lawyer, or doctor paid to be able to practice medicine. You choose your career field. If you dont like it, maybe you should change, or maybe you should have choosen better? Do you deny that pilots use DZ's as a way to get hours to move up? Just because you didn't that does not make it true."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #85 July 10, 2006 Quote You choose your career field. Ron - lighten up. You're pissing off the pilots.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #86 July 10, 2006 QuoteQuoteOf course he is impossible, always has been always will be. But the fact remains he brought up some issues that you have avoided addressing. Just how long did you fly jumpers? How many hours in turbine twins did you have when you started flying jumpers and how many now? It’s a 2 way street, DZO’s use pilots and pilots use DZO’s. They get cheap pilots and pilots get cheap hours. Your preaching to the chior. Was the line where I said "to those of you who talk about a market economy... you are right...goodbye" typed in invisible letters? I understand the situation completely. I flew jumpers for 1.5 years. I had 1000 hours when I started flying turbines I have 1500 now. I have 350 turbine hours. What is your point? Yes I benefited, I never said I didnt. All im saying is that jumpers pay for what they get. Also, most jumpers have no idea how ill-trained and experinced their new turbine jump pilots are (by and large). Im not making any conclusions. I didnt end my post with "so you should pay pilots more and instructors less". Stop acting like I did. My post in written in black and white there are no hidden meanings. My point was that you were asked a couple of things and it appeared you were avoiding answering them. I didn’t “act” like you did anything. But you did say “Also, most jumpers have no idea how ill-trained and experinced their new turbine jump pilots are (by and large).” Which sees like a slam against most jump pilots. With 1500 total hours you should not be throwing rocks. You are in a service oriented field where your job is to provide service. If you expect to succeed lose the attitude. I know, I am impossible also. And I am also a pilot with a little more then 1500 hours.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtimebabe24 0 #87 July 10, 2006 i do have to laugh @ that. you are a very funny guy. thank you for pointing that out- i guess i should shut up then huh?!have a great day!"The most wasted day of all is that upon which we have not laughed..." Nicholas Chamfort. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #88 July 10, 2006 QuoteYou all need to be paying your pilots more if you can afford 50 bucks a jump to hear "you need to stick your legs out more". I don't think jump pilots know how much money is exchanged at a DZ. They should demand their fair share. They have the most responsibility on any lift. They are responsible for ALL the lives on the flight. The pilot has the most to lose in a violation. didnt read this whole thread so this may have been said. 50$ a jump for a coach is about 3$ after cost to the coach. 21$ per slot X2 =42 + 5$ coach pack job =$47 that leaves $3. isnt unreasonable if you ask me. but if the student looks around they CAN get free coaching if they just pay there own slot. but 50$ on top all this is kind of extreme. but, it is only worth what your willing to pay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #89 July 11, 2006 Quote21$ per slot X2 =42 + 5$ coach pack job =$47 They cover your pack job? Lucky you! I have to pack myself! _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #90 July 11, 2006 Airtwardo, thanks, glad to be back. And I too hope that I still trust my pilots 10 years from now. I just checked your bio and notice you're from Houston. Do you know Chuck Akers? I did several of my AFF jumps with him and we were good friends till we lost touch after I moved to FL. Did you ever jump at Skydive USA in Wharton? *** On the Perris crash...not relevent to the point you're trying to make in the thread...but it was a somewhat under qualified pilot trying to build hours...working for 'next to nothing' I don't know Chuck very well personally, we've met a few times...seems like a neat guy. I've lived here in the Houston area for going on ten years but I jump all over. I do a lot of demos nationwide, and since my wife works for the airlines..I can get around pretty easy...I really have no 'home' dropzone...but my favorite is still Elsinore. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #91 July 11, 2006 Sounds eerily similar to IT outsourcing..sure I've got 20 years of experience...but the fresh college kids work for 1/4 of my salary....gotta love it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #92 July 11, 2006 Quote gotta love it! No you don't. We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #93 July 11, 2006 QuoteWe aren't greedy. We just want a "little more" and the understanding among all Instructors and Pilots from coast to coast that all the brothers and sisters work and get treated fairly– or none of the brothers and sisters work. Once we do that – fixing everything else will be easy. And think of the "convention" we could have once a year. Nick, Are you aware that in the history of the labor movement what was lost during a job action was never recovered by those involved? Do you really think pilots and instructors at the average DZ should get $30,000 to $40,000 dollars a year?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #94 July 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteWe aren't greedy. We just want a "little more" and the understanding among all Instructors and Pilots from coast to coast that all the brothers and sisters work and get treated fairly– or none of the brothers and sisters work. Once we do that – fixing everything else will be easy. And think of the "convention" we could have once a year. Nick, Are you aware that in the history of the labor movement what was lost during a job action was never recovered by those involved? Do you really think pilots and instructors at the average DZ should get $30,000 to $40,000 dollars a year? *** Sparky~ There was recently an ad in one of the publications looking for TM's...the ad claimed the 'average' yearly for a full timer was double the above. Now THAT'S a lotta slingin' meat! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velvetjo 0 #95 July 12, 2006 Just to illustrate Ron's point about hours as compensation, go try to rent a 182 sometime, even an old POS at a country FBO. IF you can find one, it'll cost you $100+ per hour. I don't even want to think about what it would cost to rent a twin otter wet. Fact is, most pilots do think of that aircraft time as part of their compensation in low-time jobs. So if you're getting $10 cash per load with 2 loads an hour in a 182, you're really netting about $120/hour in value received, mostly tax-free. I'm kinda sick of hearing this stuff - it's just a pay-for-training thread in sheep's clothing. It's a reality of the business right now. I'd love to quit my job and fly for a living, but the economics don't work. For those who are willing to put up with the BS and low pay to get a job flying full time, more power to you. I have friends who've done it, but it's a hard road. Lance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #96 July 12, 2006 QuoteSounds eerily similar to IT outsourcing..sure I've got 20 years of experience...but the fresh college kids work for 1/4 of my salary.... If a kid fresh out of college can actually do your job in spite of your 20 years experience then either they're very talented or you're overqualified for your job. I work for a consultant who charges $150 an hour for our engineering services. Most of our clients recognize that they could hire a wet kid for about $25 an hour, but also know or soon learn that the kid will take 10 hours to solve a problem it takes me an hour to fix. Down time = money. They figure it out fast. The solution is in proving that your experience is worth something. If you can't then that's the real problem.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #97 July 12, 2006 Quote If a kid fresh out of college can actually do your job in spite of your 20 years experience then either they're very talented or you're overqualified for your job. The real issue is IT managers haven't figured out what your clients have figured out. Plus, once an infrastructure/application is in place by an experienced professional, they tend to work well for long periods of time. Thus, the lack of perception on IT managers part.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #98 July 12, 2006 Skydiving is riskier than flying a jump plane, and tougher on the body. That should factor into the equation. Having said that, no way would I pay a coach $50 a jump unless it were Craig Girard, Dan BC, Rook Nelson or similar. And to the best of my knowledge, these guys coach at no charge. Where are no-name coaches getting $50 a jump?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #99 July 12, 2006 Quote Skydiving is riskier than flying a jump plane, and tougher on the body. That should factor into the equation. Having said that, no way would I pay a coach $50 a jump unless it were Craig Girard, Dan BC, Rook Nelson or similar. And to the best of my knowledge, these guys coach at no charge. Where are no-name coaches getting $50 a jump? I wonder if the $50 is a misperception that someone overheard a student complaining they are PAYING $50 per jump (which includes the cost of their own jump). In that case, 2 jump tickets and the pack job for the coach just about does it. Or even $50 per newbie jump including gear rental. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #100 July 12, 2006 To re-inject reality, I wrote that mine were $104, which included rental, my pack, two slots, and I believe $35 to the coach. On the positive side, all 'coaches' were AFF-Is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
